Proposed Deer plan for Central Idaho(not official)

[eye_zick]

I've not hunted in this part of the world, but isn't the NR total hunters essentially capped at 10% of the tags in every OTC unit?

I'd also like to see more sportsmen letters giving metrics of what success looks like if this is implemented. Like what's the goal? Higher buck ratio? Higher harvest success per hunter? More % of 4-pt deer taken each year on average?

It seems like the goal with this letter is to "increase deer numbers to objective" but unfortunately bucks don't have fawns, so that'll be a failed goal if any version of this is adopted.

In theory they "capped" NR tags at 10%, but it seems to be fanciful to me.

I think that Idaho hunters are our own worst enemy. We will whine ourselves into a far worse situation than we currently have.

To be blunt, I see no basis for the claims in this letter. I just took a dive into the statistics on these units going back to 2009 and then spot checked data from the 70's and 80's. I went that far so that I could see the trends through the winter of 2010-11, 2016-17, and 2018-19. Too many hunters seem to be looking at this year's deer numbers and think the sky is falling and drastic measures need to be taken; while forgetting that we just had a hellacious winter. Short memories don't even go far enough back to remember the recovery from the 2010-11 winter that lead to some of the best hunting years in Idaho history between 2014-16. The harvest numbers during that period were as high as the "glory days" of hunting in Idaho. It was short lived, but so were many of the glory years which came and went in 4-5 year periods scattered through the years between 1950 and 1990. It would also surprise many to know that hunter numbers in the 70's and 80's were just as high as they are today in many units.

From 2017 to 2022, hunter numbers declined 15-25% lower in all three units and harvest is up 13-64% in all 3 units. % 4 PT has been steady in 2 of the 3 units and declined 8-10% in the third unit. It might interest some to know that hunter numbers in 1983 in these units was just as high as now.

I would also refute the claim that these 3 units are disproportionally hunted (high pressure) as compared to other units. The total harvest in these units is ~14% of the state total (when selecting for units that predominantly harvest mule deer OTC) and the number of hunters is only 10% of the state total (also selecting for OTC predominantly mule deer units). It would be disproportional if the percentage of hunters was significantly higher than the percent of harvest, but in fact it is the other way around.

I cringe at suggestions to have zone specific tags for deer. When I review statistics around the state I see that hunters pretty much self regulate. When harvest is low, hunter numbers follow and pressure is naturally reduced. Some hunters shift to other units, some sit out a season or two. Instituting deer zones with some on a quota and others unlimited would have unintended consequences that would permanently shift pressure to select zones and create high demand for quota zones. That high demand would eventually lead to calls for more controlled hunts. Besides, I enjoy hunting new areas each year and still being able to hunt near home for the remainder of the season.

I would disagree there is no basis for this letter. I see more hunters, and a declining buck age, especially in 43.






Apparently its too much to ask for a dynamic approach to season settings in lieu of bad winters. Is it too much to ask for a chance to have our population dynamic recover? The way I see it there is no change in management in response to a change in, well anything, and so why should we expect the population to recover or for the number of mature deer to increase when the hunting pressure and seasons are static.

 

[littlebigtine]

In theory they "capped" NR tags at 10%, but it seems to be fanciful to me.

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I would disagree there is no basis for this letter. I see more hunters, and a declining buck age, especially in 43.

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Apparently it’s too much to ask for a dynamic approach to season settings in lieu of bad winters. Is it too much to ask for a chance to have our population dynamic recover? The way I see it there is no change in management in response to a change in, well anything, and so why should we expect the population to recover or for the number of mature deer to increase when the hunting pressure and seasons are static.

I agree! Except that apparently, according to everybody, hunting doesn’t have a noticeable effect on population. What do you think about an aging regime for a unit, instead of a 4pt+ questionnaire. I have a 2 1/2 yr 4pt on the wall next to a 6 1/2 yr 3pt. Idaho should belly up and actually get some hard data on these deer and record it through mando hunter reports.

 

[Gobbler36]

Yea, its worked so well here that there are mature deer around every tree...listen to the RAC and board meetings. People are bitching about the same thing you guys are. Cutting tags has worked so well we have done it virtually every year for 40 years. Dont worry though, this next time it will work.

Idaho is killing as many if not more mature deer than Utah does.

I hear this a lot, and its idiotic to think that hunting deer every three years will somehow make it better. I repeat DO NOT GIVE UP WHAT YOU HAVE, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU HAVE.

This mentality will kill the average hunter, and they are the back bone of hunting.

Northern Utah, most of Idaho, and Western Wyoming are coming off the worst winter we have seen in 20 years. Winter kill was hard, and it will have an effect. Dont let that override and change managements permanently. Even when Utah was growing deer, they didnt issue more tags.

I hunt with a small group of guys that between the three of us we spend close to 15-20 days in the field during general deer in Remote hard to access country and in 10 years or so we all report fewer deer and less mature deer sightings. I realize and account that we’ve had harsh winter in this same time frame, but yet f&g still give youth either sex tags, and over 2000 either sex tags in these units coupled with that and along with a boom in increased residents our deer are getting hammered and The amount of tags issued is the only thing we can control since we can’t control weather.

in this same time frame and winter I go to a 0pt draw unit for archery in UT and have a chance at least to see and stalk multiple bucks 170 or better.

it’s all anecdotal I get that but i can only have an opinion on what I see for myself.

I still stand by That I’d like to see some regulation changes for deer,maybe seeing it go to draw is an extreme, but I feel Something drastic needs to happen. there is simply too many people in the field and the resource is being pushed too far imo

 

[Gobbler36]

I agree! Except that apparently, according to everybody, hunting doesn’t have a noticeable effect on population. What do you think about an aging regime for a unit, instead of a 4pt+ questionnaire. I have a 2 1/2 yr 4pt on the wall next to a 6 1/2 yr 3pt. Idaho should belly up and actually get some hard data on these deer and record it through mando hunter reports.

Agreed
it’s just the toughest thing with any of these conversation. we truly don’t know what gets taken out of the population

 

[CorbLand]

I hunt with a small group of guys that between the three of us we spend close to 15-20 days in the field during general deer in Remote hard to access country and in 10 years or so we all report fewer deer and less mature deer sightings. I realize and account that we’ve had harsh winter in this same time frame, but yet f&g still give youth either sex tags, and over 2000 either sex tags in these units coupled with that and along with a boom in increased residents our deer are getting hammered and The amount of tags issued is the only thing we can control since we can’t control weather.

in this same time frame and winter I go to a 0pt draw unit for archery in UT and have a chance at least to see and stalk multiple bucks 170 or better.

it’s all anecdotal I get that but i can only have an opinion on what I see for myself.

I still stand by That I’d like to see some regulation changes for deer,maybe seeing it go to draw is an extreme, but I feel Something drastic needs to happen. there is simply too many people in the field and the resource is being pushed too far imo

For this hunt in Utah, are you going every year or have you only gone once?

I don’t think anyone is denying that there are more and more people on the landscape and demand is far out pacing supply but simply not putting tags in peoples pockets is not the answer.

 

[Spoonbill]

I hunt with a small group of guys that between the three of us we spend close to 15-20 days in the field during general deer in Remote hard to access country and in 10 years or so we all report fewer deer and less mature deer

Have you noticed an increase in predators during that same timeframe? Wolves lions and bears also have an impact on deer numbers.
I bring it up to make the point that its not just hunters and hard winters that are killing deer (and elk) and an increase in predators that have no season will drive down numbers. Also in these areas where you are seeing less deer, there is a chance wolves or other predators have driven them to other areas.

 

[Gobbler36]

Have you noticed an increase in predators during that same timeframe? Wolves lions and bears also have an impact on deer numbers.
I bring it up to make the point that its not just hunters and hard winters that are killing deer (and elk) and an increase in predators that have no season will drive down numbers. Also in these areas where you are seeing less deer, there is a chance wolves or other predators have driven them to other areas.

I suppose
I’ve always seen lots of bears, never a lion although I’m not that naive, shot a wolf first year in the area. still hear howls from time to time. yes predators certainly have their influences but we make up the biggest group of predators

 

[Gobbler36]

For this hunt in Utah, are you going every year or have you only gone once?

I don’t think anyone is denying that there are more and more people on the landscape and demand is far out pacing supply but simply not putting tags in peoples pockets is not the answer.

I’ve gone every year I believe there was a year or 2 I didnt go when I drew more primo tags in Idaho

well I’m open to any suggestions if there is a way to increase supply, have a more enjoyable experience and have more opportunity seems like an out of balance equation, we are not getting any more habitat.

it’s not like I don’t want to hunt every year
I do but I’m to the point if i could have more enjoyable time in the mtns and see more and better quality deer I’m willing to sacrifice it

 

[CorbLand]

I’ve gone every year I believe there was a year or 2 I didnt go when I drew more primo tags in Idaho

well I’m open to any suggestions if there is a way to increase supply, have a more enjoyable experience and have more opportunity seems like an out of balance equation, we are getting any more habitat.

it’s not like I don’t want to hunt every year
I do but I’m to the point if i could have more enjoyable time in the mtns and see more and better quality deer I’m willing to sacrifice it

Sounds like you found your answer. Quit hunting Idaho and just hunt Utah.

 

[Huntnnw]

I just received this and was wondering what your opinions are, Deer loss was high in central Idaho from last winter, that along with a high number of NR hunters has many locals looking for a way relieve stress on the resource.
I'm not agreeing/disagreeing with the letter but would like your opinions, thanks

the NR quota hasnt changed in decades!! what has changed in decades is NEW RESIDENTS by 50X

 

[Andrew12gauge]

the NR quota hasnt changed in decades!! what has changed in decades is NEW RESIDENTS by 50X

Nothing in this post was against nonresidents


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[Gobbler36]

Sounds like you found your answer. Quit hunting Idaho and just hunt Utah.

I’m sorry to offend
i know most nr’s would like Idaho to continue being the Walmart of hunting for everyone but i think its reasonable to remove my own personal ambitions and asks the question if its worth our herds and outdoor experience to continue on this same path

 

[Gobbler36]

the NR quota hasnt changed in decades!! what has changed in decades is NEW RESIDENTS by 50X

Correct which is why something has to be done about otc hunts here

 

[CorbLand]

I’m sorry to offend
i know most nr’s would like Idaho to continue being the Walmart of hunting for everyone but i think its reasonable to remove my own personal ambitions and asks the question if its worth our herds and outdoor experience to continue on this same path

What makes you think that you offended me? Life is far to short to get offended over someone disagreeing with me on the management of mule deer.

I dont hunt Idaho so I have zero dog in the fight. I just want people to know that Utahs model is not the answer and that if you give up your opportunity you will never get it back and it does not solve anything.

There are how many different states managing mule deer in how many different ways? None of them are increasing their herd. Deer are flat struggling right now and over hunting is not the reason. Habitat...we need more habitat.

If cutting tags and hunting them less often worked...we wouldnt have had to do it every year for 40 years. Even Utahs LE units arent overflowing with deer.

 

[Customweld]

There are how many different states managing mule deer in how many different ways? None of them are increasing their herd. Deer are flat struggling right now and over hunting is not the reason. Habitat...we need more habitat.

If cutting tags and hunting them less often worked...we wouldnt have had to do it every year for 40 years. Even Utahs LE units arent overflowing with deer.

Say it again, louder for those in the back.

 

[Gobbler36]

What makes you think that you offended me? Life is far to short to get offended over someone disagreeing with me on the management of mule deer.

I dont hunt Idaho so I have zero dog in the fight. I just want people to know that Utahs model is not the answer and that if you give up your opportunity you will never get it back and it does not solve anything.

There are how many different states managing mule deer in how many different ways? None of them are increasing their herd. Deer are flat struggling right now and over hunting is not the reason. Habitat...we need more habitat.

If cutting tags and hunting them less often worked...we wouldnt have had to do it every year for 40 years. Even Utahs LE units arent overflowing with deer.

I cant get on board i guess its just easy to look at over hunting and tag quotas first since that seems like the easiest lever to pull, i get frustrated thinking about habitat cause I don’t see how one man has any influence over that, I’ve seen more and more subdivisions pop up on winer range her than i care to admit

how do you fight against those things?

 

[CorbLand]

I cant get on board i guess its just easy to look at over hunting and tag quotas first since that seems like the easiest lever to pull, i get frustrated thinking about habitat cause I don’t see how one man has any influence over that, I’ve seen more and more subdivisions pop up on winer range her than i care to admit

how do you fight against those things?

Go to your city and county zoning meetings. Get a group of people together and get zoning changed. It not always about more habitat...sometimes we just need better habitat. Winter range is important but so is summer range. No matter how many deer hunters kill, highways and interstates are far better at it. Put pressure on F&G to manage predators. Donate to non profits. Donate your time to habitat projects.

At least your saying the quiet part out loud. Cutting tags is easier. Restricting how often you can hunt is easier. It has always been the easy button and its been getting pushed for 4 decades. Easy is not always the answer and its been proven to not work. We have to change.

I am not opposed to cutting tags but I am getting very tired of it being the only option.

One person has never had an impact by themselves but one person has changed the mind of many and those many have made changes. We have a lot to be thankful for that was given to us by people that didnt keep hitting the easy button.

Hobbs said it best on the last Rokcast...change your attitude and see how much better it gets. I am not the most dedicated hunter, Hobbs, Scotty, Robby, those guys are my hero's but I hunted one of the worst winter kill areas this year and did my absolute best to stay positive. I had the best hunting season I have had since 2016 and I never saw a deer bigger than a small three point.

 

[Customweld]

Go to your city and county zoning meetings. Get a group of people together and get zoning changed. It not always about more habitat...sometimes we just need better habitat. Winter range is important but so is summer range. No matter how many deer hunters kill, highways and interstates are far better at it. Put pressure on F&G to manage predators.

At least your saying the quiet part out loud. Cutting tags is easier. Restricting how often you can hunt is easier. It has always been the easy button and its been getting pushed for 4 decades. Easy is not always the answer and its been proven to not work. We have to change.

One person has never had an impact by themselves but one person has changed the mind of many and those many have made changes. We have a lot to be thankful for that was given to us by people that didnt keep hitting the easy button.

Well said. In addition, there are many opportunities with IFG to volunteer in range rehab, seed collection and other things that can help the landscape. Once the hunting opportunities are given away, we aren't getting them back. Like I earlier, one dry summer and one bad winter can wipe out a decade of population growth.

 

[PathFinder]

Conceptually, I agree with the idea of widespread opportunity. However, like Colorado OTC elk I think there is a limit to it somewhere mathematically.
Idaho's human population has grown over 20% in 10 years. Is there a point where it is unsustainable to allow the current level of opportunity as the resident population continues to grow? Especially as that growing human population devours winter range?

 

[IdahoSwede]

the NR quota hasnt changed in decades!! what has changed in decades is NEW RESIDENTS by 50X

In most posts i see about hunting pressure (this one included) the general consensus seems to be that it is going up. But as others have shown in data the reality is this is not true. While idaho population has grown substantially the number of hunters has declined not grown.

One theory is that maybe its not that there are more hunters, but they are more congregated within specific areas in the unit? The access to data is so good now (and everyone generally looks at the same data) , e scouting, forums, fish and game data, etc that people end up in the similar areas, where as previously they may have been slightly more spread out.

Another theory. In every year, in every state, since the dawn of time, hunters have been convinced hunting "isnt what it used to be".