Proposed Deer plan for Central Idaho(not official)

[Customweld]

Buckle up it's another long one from me. I admire everyone who is gifted with the ability to convey ideas with brevity. I sadly do not have that gift.

The number of mule deer hunters by year in Idaho was not separated from the total number of deer hunters (whitetail + mule deer) until 2005. Here are some TOTAL deer hunter numbers through the last 50 years. The average is 135,000 and the highest number I have found was in 2007. Here's a random sample:

1977 - 146,300
1983 - 139,000
1991 - 146,500
2003 - 143,300
2007 - 148,900
2014 - 143834
2022 - 126,802

Starting in 2005 IDFG has provided separated numbers for MULE deer hunters only.

2005 - 94,800
2010 - 89,590
2015 - 114,926
2020 - 88,603
2022 - 79,516

Mule deer only harvest is easy to find as far back as 1988. For reference and to calibrate your brain 1986-1989 saw an explosion in deer harvest never seen before or since. Statewide deer harvest averages ~53,000 if you look from 1953 to the present and take out the outliers 1986-1989. I chose 1953 because that was the first year deer harvest exceeded 45,000 (including previous years would skew the average lower). In 1989 the harvest was 95,200 deer (whitetail and mule deer). That same year, mule deer harvest was 72,320 of which 28,670 were does. So 43,650 bucks. The recent high in 2016, buck harvest was 29,331. Aside from the period between 1986-1990 there has never been another time when mule buck harvest was over 26,000.

Here are some Mule deer buck harvest stats:
Buck harvest average 1990-2022 = ~21,000
2022 - 19,596
2020 - 19,425
2015 - 29,235
2010 - 18,534
2005 - 24,128
2000 - 20,100
1995 - 16,478
1990 - 33,197

When I look at these numbers, I simply don’t see a case for eliminating OTC hunting or changing the season structure to zones. The average days hunted is very similar between now and any point in the last 50 years also. Hunters aren’t spending more time in the field. So that doesn’t explain the feeling of increased pressure.

So I sincerely ask the question; If mule deer hunter numbers are down, and harvest numbers are in line with long term averages (despite recent hard winters), why do hunters feel crowded?

Is it changes in season structures that overlap elk and deer seasons? Or was this always the case?

Does the high cost of NR tags cause them to only purchase a deer tag or an elk and not both. So instead of 1 NR hunter holding a deer and an elk tag we have 1 NR hunter holding a deer tag and another NR hunter holding an elk tag effectively doubling the number of NR hunters? (I realize this is only possible to an extent and I don't have any statistics that would show if this is true or not.)

Have hunters concentrated in specific units? Is this due to habitat/population declines in other areas? Loss of access? I wonder if private land was easier to access in decades past than it is now.

Are we more mobile as hunters than in times past? Do we see more hunters because we use ATVs more and hence cover more ground increasing opportunity to see others?

Solid research @idelkslayer .
I started hunting deer in 1987, when I was 12. At that time in the area I got to hunt, elk and deer seasons were flipped. Elk opened on Oct 5th and deer opened on Oct 15th. You could hunt both species on that tag and many guys held out to hunt whitetails later in November up north. I don’t remember exactly when they came up with the whitetail only tag.
I think maybe the crowded feeling comes from guys spending more time in the field and a loss of private ground that was previously accessible without any kind of permission.(Wilks, Simplot, etc).
The areas where season overlapped were pretty similar to what they are now. Prior to the elk zones, there were mountain tags, regular tags and panhandle tags. So you could shop around to find an area where they did over lap.
I think we do see more hunters, not necessarily due to atv’s but to actual road closures. Closing non system roads and just keeping main roads open concentrates folks to those areas. I’m not advocating for a roads everywhere, but recognize the fact that you’re are going to see more people in a forest with 100 miles of road compared to the same forest with a thousand miles.

 

[CorbLand]

Buckle up it's another long one from me. I admire everyone who is gifted with the ability to convey ideas with brevity. I sadly do not have that gift.

The number of mule deer hunters by year in Idaho was not separated from the total number of deer hunters (whitetail + mule deer) until 2005. Here are some TOTAL deer hunter numbers through the last 50 years. The average is 135,000 and the highest number I have found was in 2007. Here's a random sample:

1977 - 146,300
1983 - 139,000
1991 - 146,500
2003 - 143,300
2007 - 148,900
2014 - 143834
2022 - 126,802

Starting in 2005 IDFG has provided separated numbers for MULE deer hunters only.

2005 - 94,800
2010 - 89,590
2015 - 114,926
2020 - 88,603
2022 - 79,516

Mule deer only harvest is easy to find as far back as 1988. For reference and to calibrate your brain 1986-1989 saw an explosion in deer harvest never seen before or since. Statewide deer harvest averages ~53,000 if you look from 1953 to the present and take out the outliers 1986-1989. I chose 1953 because that was the first year deer harvest exceeded 45,000 (including previous years would skew the average lower). In 1989 the harvest was 95,200 deer (whitetail and mule deer). That same year, mule deer harvest was 72,320 of which 28,670 were does. So 43,650 bucks. The recent high in 2016, buck harvest was 29,331. Aside from the period between 1986-1990 there has never been another time when mule buck harvest was over 26,000.

Here are some Mule deer buck harvest stats:
Buck harvest average 1990-2022 = ~21,000
2022 - 19,596
2020 - 19,425
2015 - 29,235
2010 - 18,534
2005 - 24,128
2000 - 20,100
1995 - 16,478
1990 - 33,197

When I look at these numbers, I simply don’t see a case for eliminating OTC hunting or changing the season structure to zones. The average days hunted is very similar between now and any point in the last 50 years also. Hunters aren’t spending more time in the field. So that doesn’t explain the feeling of increased pressure.

So I sincerely ask the question; If mule deer hunter numbers are down, and harvest numbers are in line with long term averages (despite recent hard winters), why do hunters feel crowded?

Is it changes in season structures that overlap elk and deer seasons? Or was this always the case?

Does the high cost of NR tags cause them to only purchase a deer tag or an elk and not both. So instead of 1 NR hunter holding a deer and an elk tag we have 1 NR hunter holding a deer tag and another NR hunter holding an elk tag effectively doubling the number of NR hunters? (I realize this is only possible to an extent and I don't have any statistics that would show if this is true or not.)

Have hunters concentrated in specific units? Is this due to habitat/population declines in other areas? Loss of access? I wonder if private land was easier to access in decades past than it is now.

Are we more mobile as hunters than in times past? Do we see more hunters because we use ATVs more and hence cover more ground increasing opportunity to see others?

I will take a stab at this. Like you, I wish I was good at conveying information like some people are.

This is all my theories and opinions.

1. You use to be able to get away from people by going to the backcountry. It has gotten far easier to go farther back. Horses, llamas, goats, bikes, backpacking have all come leaps and bounds. The guys that were willing to put in the effort are now seeing people back in “their” spots because the barrier to entry is far lower.

2. Access is getting more limited. Private land is being locked up, pushing more people to the public ground. Just this year, two spots that I use to be access have been shutoff due to the land owner posting their land. This wasn’t special to me access, just private land that wasn’t posted and anyone could access.

3. Habitat is being reduced. This is pushing animals into more concentrated areas thus pushing hunters there. Animals can’t spread out like they use to.

4. Society. It’s actually funny you asked this because it got brought up in one of the Utah RAC. We have cut 75% of the tags for deer in Utah over the last 50 years. People complained then about over crowding and are still complaining even after 75% less tag holders. My dad died in 1996 and he commented all the time about how busy Yellowstone was getting. People just want to complain and it’s easy to blame too many people. Low hanging fruit with a big target.

5. Information is easier to obtain. You use to be able to find your niche in hunting and exploit it. Well, now someone will write a book about it, do a podcast, post on a forum, etc. I use to have an area that I hunted that many people overlooked. It wasn’t special, never had big deer but we pulled a couple average 4s out of it. Had the place to myself for a couple years. Well, someone did a podcast and didn’t drop the name of the area but described the habitat and the next year there were 7 people in there.

6. More recreation in general. It’s not always hunters that people run into and complain about. Hikers, bikers, atv, campers, etc. There is just flat more of them. Utah RAC meeting this year saw a dude complaining about a running race that went through his hunt area and “ruined his muzzleloader hunt.”

7. Excuses. People want excuses for why they do what they do. They don’t really feel crowded but they didn’t kill a deer so the excuse becomes “too many people.” It’s just excuses.

 

[Huntnnw]

In most posts i see about hunting pressure (this one included) the general consensus seems to be that it is going up. But as others have shown in data the reality is this is not true. While idaho population has grown substantially the number of hunters has declined not grown.

One theory is that maybe its not that there are more hunters, but they are more congregated within specific areas in the unit? The access to data is so good now (and everyone generally looks at the same data) , e scouting, forums, fish and game data, etc that people end up in the similar areas, where as previously they may have been slightly more spread out.

Another theory. In every year, in every state, since the dawn of time, hunters have been convinced hunting "isnt what it used to be".

maybe as a percentage of the population that hunts is true, but the sales of hunting license's from the 90's to today is far greater.

 

[Huntnnw]

What would work is not allowing people to buy a big game tag the next season if their harvest report was not filled out by say January 31st of that year. It is a little draconian but it would be effective.

harvest reports mean almost nothing. there is nothing stopping a guy who kills a nice muley every year in a overlooked unit who is forced to fill out a harvest report and check " no buck killed"

 

[IdahoSwede]

maybe as a percentage of the population that hunts is true, but the sales of hunting license's from the 90's to today is far greater.

I can only compare with the data until 2006. There are less hunters today than 2006, but yeah you could be right, maybe more than the 90s, is there a way to actually look at those numbers?

 

[Spoonbill]

harvest reports mean almost nothing. there is nothing stopping a guy who kills a nice muley every year in a overlooked unit who is forced to fill out a harvest report and check " no buck killed"

Right, especially since the average hunter thinks that way. I guess I have a higher opinion of my fellow man than some but I am willing to bet most people are honest on their harvest reports. Sure some people lie, just like some people speed and some people don’t tip. Can’t let a few bad apples ruin it for everyone else.

 

[Customweld]

I can only compare with the data until 2006. There are less hunters today than 2006, but yeah you could be right, maybe more than the 90s, is there a way to actually look at those numbers?

These numbers are from Fish and Wildlife Services. You can manipulate between states.

Dashboard

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[Customweld]

Right, especially since the average hunter thinks that way. I guess I have a higher opinion of my fellow man than some but I am willing to bet most people are honest on their harvest reports. Sure some people lie, just like some people speed and some people don’t tip. Can’t let a few bad apples ruin it for everyone else.

I would agree with you. Even if only 80 percent were honest, it would be beneficial.

 

[Bigbuckbandit]

Cutting the distance just dropped a podcast discussing similar challenges facing the eastern MT deer herd. I think all the western states are facing these same hurdles.

The spot I was hunting in central Idaho had some sheep herders come in over the summer. I was curious what the hillside would look like, so hiked up there later in the season and was amazed at how those sheep can eat up an entire hillside. Just highlights one of the many impacts facing western species.

 

[Gobbler36]

After thinking about this for a couple days I think everyone on this thread has valid points. opportunity would suck to lose for sure. but I think those of us that hunt hard in ID for deer every year knows deep down some changes need to occur With ALL the factors going on that we have mentioned. I personally feel like going to zones with both caps on Residents in certain zones along with having to choose a weapon season is going to eliminate a lot of the issues with over crowding in every season anyone would know that the rifle season would see the most pressure but youd be prepared for it but it could give guys a chance in archery and maybe throw in a Muzzy only in that first week of October.

 

[Customweld]

After thinking about this for a couple days I think everyone on this thread has valid points. opportunity would suck to lose for sure. but I think those of us that hunt hard in ID for deer every year knows deep down some changes need to occur With ALL the factors going on that we have mentioned. I personally feel like going to zones with both caps on Residents in certain zones along with having to choose a weapon season is going to eliminate a lot of the issues with over crowding in every season anyone would know that the rifle season would see the most pressure but youd be prepared for it but it could give guys a chance in archery and maybe throw in a Muzzy only in that first week of October.

Just to play devils advocate. Where would you cap the zones? At current number, or say current number plus or minus 10 percent? What are you going to do when it turns into the Sawtooth Elk zone fiasco and every one demands a draw?

 

[Gobbler36]

Just to play devils advocate. Where would you cap the zones? At current number, or say current number plus or minus 10 percent? What are you going to do when it turns into the Sawtooth Elk zone fiasco and every one demands a draw?

Valid questions no doubt.
just spit balling but I think current number would be fair. if what a lot of you say is true and hunter numbers are going down then it shouldn’t turn into the sawtooth fiasco

 

[littlebigtine]

Can someone explain why having a draw deer hunt is a bad idea when practically every zone is a draw hunt for Elk?
My biggest concern with the deer population in our area is winter habitat loss, no matter how much we tell the city council about habitat loss the developers always seem to win.

100% agree. We are not giving up any opportunities. IDFG can do a better job managing the more delicate species! 48,49,43 are all rifle elk draws and I consistently hunt and see other people(lol) harvest mature bulls. Why cant deer be the same? No opportunity loss. You wanna hunt 49? Cool sign up. I find it comical that people are reading this letter like it’s the sky falling. I don’t see it. I am a dedicated mule deer hunter that scouts these units thoroughly each summer. The age class is suffering and yes habitat and weather are the biggest players. That doesn’t mean that hunting has no effect and frankly it’s weird when all you see are dinks pushing does come November. I don’t care if there are 10 dinks per 100 does. It is not healthy for a herd when inbreeding is a very real possibility and competition between breeding bucks is non-existent. In these units, it is practically impossible to shoot a bull after the rut without broken tines. No body is complaining, the bull density makes for great hunting. I would prefer to see the deer herd this robust as well. And honestly I think that limiting rifle and keeping short range general otc is part of the path forward. The same way we approach elk. And, once again, elk are the more resilient species. Why would we do the opposite of where logic points us with deer?

 

[littlebigtine]

Cutting the distance just dropped a podcast discussing similar challenges facing the eastern MT deer herd. I think all the western states are facing these same hurdles.

The spot I was hunting in central Idaho had some sheep herders come in over the summer. I was curious what the hillside would look like, so hiked up there later in the season and was amazed at how those sheep can eat up an entire hillside. Just highlights one of the many impacts facing western species.

Dont even get me started about mountain maggots and cattle!

 

[littlebigtine]

After thinking about this for a couple days I think everyone on this thread has valid points. opportunity would suck to lose for sure. but I think those of us that hunt hard in ID for deer every year knows deep down some changes need to occur With ALL the factors going on that we have mentioned. I personally feel like going to zones with both caps on Residents in certain zones along with having to choose a weapon season is going to eliminate a lot of the issues with over crowding in every season anyone would know that the rifle season would see the most pressure but youd be prepared for it but it could give guys a chance in archery and maybe throw in a Muzzy only in that first week of October.

Are you Jesus? I will follow wherever you lead…

 

[Gobbler36]

Are you Jesus? I will follow wherever you lead…

Not even close
but im thinking @CorbLand has me motivated right now to get off my ass so I’m thinking of starting an email chain to f&g on a few issues that I’m motivated on so maybe if you are in the same camp as me and you have buddies that are as well I’d like to get a group organized to question and lay some of these things out to f&g. mainly deer seasons and thermal use.
pm me if interested

 

[87TT]

You are never going to get the old days back. Don't F with it and learn to adapt. All of you who think you could live with not hunting every year are not looking at the long picture. when you get grown up and only have a few years left, you will not want to waste them waiting for a tag. Or imagine not being able to hunt your own land? Or where you grew up? Being able to hunt is more important than being able to kill.

 

[Spoonbill]

You are never going to get the old days back. Don't F with it and learn to adapt. All of you who think you could live with not hunting every year are not looking at the long picture. when you get grown up and only have a few years left, you will not want to waste them waiting for a tag. Or imagine not being able to hunt your own land? Or where you grew up? Being able to hunt is more important than being able to kill.

The numbers laid out by @idelkslayer show that deer harvest numbers have been fairly consistent, the emotional approach is what will ruin one of the best states to live in as a hunter.
I do agree with @Gobbler36 about the thermal binos but that requires the law to be changed, so fish and game is powerless to do anything until that happens.

 

[IdahoElk]

The numbers laid out by @idelkslayer show that deer harvest numbers have been fairly consistent, the emotional approach is what will ruin one of the best states to live in as a hunter.
I do agree with @Gobbler36 about the thermal binos but that requires the law to be changed, so fish and game is powerless to do anything until that happens.

The stats idelkslayer doesn't show are the size of deer harvested and number of hunters, just because things seem consistent isn't an arguing point that all is well.

 

[IdahoElk]

You are never going to get the old days back. Don't F with it and learn to adapt. All of you who think you could live with not hunting every year are not looking at the long picture. when you get grown up and only have a few years left, you will not want to waste them waiting for a tag. Or imagine not being able to hunt your own land? Or where you grew up? Being able to hunt is more important than being able to kill.

How do you feel about drawing a tag for Elk? why do you think that program was started? Why are Deer any different?
In my opinion Deer need a lot more help in some areas than Elk currently, talking units 48,49