A different take on trophy mule deer management - Our solutions have been the problem

[dirtytough]

Also since I have killed 2 of my last 3 bucks on the last day or the day before the end of the season. 28th of sept on 2 and this year it was the 27th of sept or 2 days before closing... I guess the earlier is easier opinion is also not valid in all cases..

That data point convinced me it’s easier to kill mature mule deer in September than August.

So let’s move the early rifle hunts to the 3rd week of August, the muzzy to the 4th week of August, and leave archery the month of September. I’m sure the archery deer hunters would love that change. Less pressure when they are hunting and they keep the better season dates.

And since the success rates should lower for early rifle and muzzy hunters, tag numbers should be able to stay the same or even increase on those hunts.

Seems like a win win win.

 

[littlebigtine]

Dude I have seen well a few "big" bucks killed since the mid 80's and no one and I mean no one I know is silly or ego driven enough to put bucks (s) in that stupid book... In certain circles it just does not happen..

I dont think Im as old as you but I know of handful of deer from a general unit in Idaho that will never be entered as well. That is my buddys decision. He doesnt have social media, doesnt hang on rokslide, and good for him.
That being said, I think it is naive to assume that the only reason somebody enters a deer into b+c is for notoriety. No doubt it is a tough question as to whether it will burn a spot and I personally have never had the issue so I cant speak on that much.
However, I think that what b+c does is more important than just recognize a hunter who shot a big buck. It is north americas single biggest data set on the ebb and flow of all big game specie’s health and vitality. If everybody bought in and participated, which is a big if, no other dataset in history can glean a comparable amount of factual data.
No matter how many bucks you shot or time youve spent in the hills, your experience is just one mans, in one place, at one time. B+c is astronomically more informative than your own opinion. Don't take that personally because that goes for everybody. I am really just trying to make a case for entering big bucks rather than hiding them in the shadows because ultimately I believe Boone and Crocket records will only help mule deer conservation on the whole rather than hurt. Its a selfish decision to keep that information from the rest of the population, but I am not saying that I wouldn’t be selfish if I shot a special deer in a general unit in the west.

Question for you:

Do you think that as the 21st century has dragged on that less and less people are actually willing to show others their trophies? Obviously not the case on social media and rokslide but what about the people that dont participate in the fanfare? Could that explain a dip in B+C entries? Maybe, there are just as many big bucks these days as there have ever been? How does anybody really know? Like I said to start, I have a buddy who, as far as I know, had the most unofficial inches of antler out of general units in Idaho from 2018-2022. Nobody saw these deer like the deer that get shared on rokslide or instagram these days. There has to be more guys out there that share his mindset and dont post their deer.
Is that a good thing for mule deer conservation from the 10,000 ft view? This is a very nuanced issue and I honestly see both sides of the coin equally.

 

[idelkslayer]

Question for you:

Do you think that as the 21st century has dragged on that less and less people are actually willing to show others their trophies? Obviously not the case on social media and rokslide but what about the people that dont participate in the fanfare? Could that explain a dip in B+C entries? Maybe, there are just as many big bucks these days as there have ever been? How does anybody really know? Like I said to start, I have a buddy who, as far as I know, had the most unofficial inches of antler out of general units in Idaho from 2018-2022. Nobody saw these deer like the deer that get shared on rokslide or instagram these days. There has to be more guys out there that share his mindset and dont post their deer.
Is that a good thing for mule deer conservation from the 10,000 ft view? This is a very nuanced issue and I honestly see both sides of the coin equally.

It is hard to answer your question. At first glance I would say that the sense of scarcity today would make hunters less likely to give away their unit by entering a buck in the books. However, I wasn't around in the 50's, 60's, and 70's to see how many big bucks were and were not being entered in the books for comparison. I agree with your point about the value of a large data set but I think modern technology has offered a better metric than antler size. We now have the ability to cementum tooth age deer.

As hunters we often use antler size as a substitute for maturity when talking about bucks but there is enough research on that to know it doesn't work very well. A lot of bucks will never be bigger than 160 no matter how old they get and some younger deer can grow large antlers. If we want to manage for age class, then we should manage for age class using the best tool for determining age and that is tooth aging. I've posted links to this study before but it bears repeating. It is for whitetail but based on what I have seen and heard from mule deer biologists, the same principles apply to mule deer.

Clearwater wildlife blog series: Installment #3- White-tailed deer teeth results

Now that year 1 of the north-Idaho deer aging study results are back from the lab, we were able to analyze some of the results and provide a short summary for you to enjoy! Take a peek at this write-up & video!

idfg.idaho.gov

It should be noted that females can be harvested in both of the cited units, but looking at the harvest data shows that they are killed at a much lower rate than bucks. Notice that the age curve for females very closely matches the age curve on bucks even though they get a lot less harvest pressure. This suggests that bucks would similarly drop off even with reduced harvest pressure. Next, compare the 9.5 yr old buck to the 3.5 year old buck. It demonstrates why management decisions shouldn't be based on B&C scoring. B&C score can be a component of the discussion but it shouldn't be the focus.

I would fully support a tag fee increase that would fund more tooth aging of deer. I think it is the only way to objectively monitor buck escapement from age 2.5 and beyond. The data could be used by both sides of the trophy management debate. If a general season unit is consistently producing some 5.5 and older deer then you will have a hard time convincing me that tag restrictions are needed. If tooth aging shows that a 4.5 year old buck is rare to non existent then you have a case for reducing hunting pressure.

 

[huntem]

Interesting perspectives and opinions in this post, I can't say I have the correct answer or solution. I do know I'm looking forward to possibly drawing in Utah this fall. The area I will be hunting is in a rifle restricted unit. I pulled my dad's M70 in -06 out of the safe and been enjoying the range time with the old girl.

 

[Customweld]

As hunters we often use antler size as a substitute for maturity when talking about bucks but there is enough research on that to know it doesn't work very well. A lot of bucks will never be bigger than 160 no matter how old they get and some younger deer can grow large antlers. If we want to manage for age class, then we should manage for age class using the best tool for determining age and that is tooth aging. I've posted links to this study before but it bears repeating. It is for whitetail but based on what I have seen and heard from mule deer biologists, the same principles apply to mule deer.

I think unit 18 and 14 are great examples of this line of thought. Both have been managed as controlled hunts, (leave the last few years out for 14) with no supplemental apr hunts. Neither boast a large amount of true, trophy muley bucks. Yes, there are few that turn up, but for units that have been controlled for 3+ decades, exceedingly few bucks are trophy class. Now there are (or used to be) a good number of mature bucks that are in 18. But you are correct that mature doesn't always mean 180" plus.

 

[littlebigtine]

It is hard to answer your question. At first glance I would say that the sense of scarcity today would make hunters less likely to give away their unit by entering a buck in the books. However, I wasn't around in the 50's, 60's, and 70's to see how many big bucks were and were not being entered in the books for comparison. I agree with your point about the value of a large data set but I think modern technology has offered a better metric than antler size. We now have the ability to cementum tooth age deer.

As hunters we often use antler size as a substitute for maturity when talking about bucks but there is enough research on that to know it doesn't work very well. A lot of bucks will never be bigger than 160 no matter how old they get and some younger deer can grow large antlers. If we want to manage for age class, then we should manage for age class using the best tool for determining age and that is tooth aging. I've posted links to this study before but it bears repeating. It is for whitetail but based on what I have seen and heard from mule deer biologists, the same principles apply to mule deer.

Clearwater wildlife blog series: Installment #3- White-tailed deer teeth results

Now that year 1 of the north-Idaho deer aging study results are back from the lab, we were able to analyze some of the results and provide a short summary for you to enjoy! Take a peek at this write-up & video!

idfg.idaho.gov

It should be noted that females can be harvested in both of the cited units, but looking at the harvest data shows that they are killed at a much lower rate than bucks. Notice that the age curve for females very closely matches the age curve on bucks even though they get a lot less harvest pressure. This suggests that bucks would similarly drop off even with reduced harvest pressure. Next, compare the 9.5 yr old buck to the 3.5 year old buck. It demonstrates why management decisions shouldn't be based on B&C scoring. B&C score can be a component of the discussion but it shouldn't be the focus.

I would fully support a tag fee increase that would fund more tooth aging of deer. I think it is the only way to objectively monitor buck escapement from age 2.5 and beyond. The data could be used by both sides of the trophy management debate. If a general season unit is consistently producing some 5.5 and older deer then you will have a hard time convincing me that tag restrictions are needed. If tooth aging shows that a 4.5 year old buck is rare to non existent then you have a case for reducing hunting pressure.

100% agree that age doesnt equal antler size, but if the condition of the mother does have a link to antler size than historical b+c data can be a clue into habitat quality. Obviously weather plays a large role in this as well. Either way I still view B+C as a net useful dataset to get a glimpse into the quality of the herd overtime. Maybe in the future when fish and game agencies have more funding and continue their great work , we will have a even greater dataset to use when looking at trends and patterns.

Thanks for this post btw, great topic and some great points continue to be brought up. Makes me optimistic about the future for Mule Deer.

 

[ColoradoV]

I dont think Im as old as you but I know of handful of deer from a general unit in Idaho that will never be entered as well. That is my buddys decision. He doesnt have social media, doesnt hang on rokslide, and good for him.
That being said, I think it is naive to assume that the only reason somebody enters a deer into b+c is for notoriety. No doubt it is a tough question as to whether it will burn a spot and I personally have never had the issue so I cant speak on that much.
However, I think that what b+c does is more important than just recognize a hunter who shot a big buck. It is north americas single biggest data set on the ebb and flow of all big game specie’s health and vitality. If everybody bought in and participated, which is a big if, no other dataset in history can glean a comparable amount of factual data.
No matter how many bucks you shot or time youve spent in the hills, your experience is just one mans, in one place, at one time. B+c is astronomically more informative than your own opinion. Don't take that personally because that goes for everybody. I am really just trying to make a case for entering big bucks rather than hiding them in the shadows because ultimately I believe Boone and Crocket records will only help mule deer conservation on the whole rather than hurt. Its a selfish decision to keep that information from the rest of the population, but I am not saying that I wouldn’t be selfish if I shot a special deer in a general unit in the west.

Question for you:

Do you think that as the 21st century has dragged on that less and less people are actually willing to show others their trophies? Obviously not the case on social media and rokslide but what about the people that dont participate in the fanfare? Could that explain a dip in B+C entries? Maybe, there are just as many big bucks these days as there have ever been? How does anybody really know? Like I said to start, I have a buddy who, as far as I know, had the most unofficial inches of antler out of general units in Idaho from 2018-2022. Nobody saw these deer like the deer that get shared on rokslide or instagram these days. There has to be more guys out there that share his mindset and dont post their deer.
Is that a good thing for mule deer conservation from the 10,000 ft view? This is a very nuanced issue and I honestly see both sides of the coin equally.

Friday at the ROK again... That damn buck is still holding and we are skiing again today so got some time to wait for the snow to soften before we head to the hills.

I dont know what other folks do other than a few in the "inner circle" of who I hunt around and I honestly dont care what folks choose. A mule deer buddy came through town and 3 of us were having lunch at our restaurant on Monday of this week and we were showing pics of big "gov tag" type bucks from the past year and joking about the internets in general and the keyboard warriors or influencers that have invaded and basically ruined the space. In fact I caught shit from the group about my ig and posting on here or that's how tight its gettin...

Between the 3 of us at the table we had pics and counted 6 bucks over 220" and many more over the golden mark that were killed by hunters and well one by a lion that will never see the light of day or that silly book or 7 total over 220.. Just Co just this year. Some killed archery, others muzzy, and rifle as well.. Now given this was a select group of guys w a long history of friendship that builds trust over long periods of time..

Why you ask well 3 of them are in units that the lemming/ig influencers would flock to as soon as the units and method of take were outed burning the guys who actually worked for it.. Much like unit burning here on the ROK I believe it is getting severely, severely looked down upon by again well all the folks I am around. Or in our little "inner circle" if ya can't keep your mouth shut or burn a unit or spot you will not be around for long. Same w the giant buck from Wyoming this year never saw the light of day or the expo.. Have to say he is a giant/monster... One in Co that has not seen the light of day is 240+...

Or from where I sit its just too bad many folks are lazy or will not put in their own work, their own scouting, their own time - to get out and see what's out there but rather choose to chase the accomplishments of others posted on line or in that silly book... Its also the reason these bucks are now shared not on the internet but stay on phones and are only shared between small groups of friends who know how to keep their mouth shut..

Right or wrong not for me to decide but its. real from the chair I sit in....

 

[ColoradoV]

That data point convinced me it’s easier to kill mature mule deer in September than August.

So let’s move the early rifle hunts to the 3rd week of August, the muzzy to the 4th week of August, and leave archery the month of September. I’m sure the archery deer hunters would love that change. Less pressure when they are hunting and they keep the better season dates.

And since the success rates should lower for early rifle and muzzy hunters, tag numbers should be able to stay the same or even increase on those hunts.

Seems like a win win win.

Man the guys I am around just say I am a shitty hunter that can't get it done early so it takes me all season! I say anyone can shoot one on day 1-3 but it takes a stud who does not see it as a "grind" and has the time to hunt all season then kill on the last day ....

Actually the way I go about all this season structure BS lately is basically I took some advice I got a few years ago from a good friend and unbelievable mule deer hunter who is a mentor for me. I was staying at his house we were looking over scouting pics on each other phones = I was bitching as I do about the season moving back a screwing archery mule deer hunters thinking I would get some reciprocal support or at least validation of my feelings. I got none...

Instead he said "we" will always find giant bucks no matter the season or what they do to it = this fact will not change so why worry about it.. The realness as well as confidence stuck w me and has been true then and now..

Or even with perfect world (for you) changes some folks will still find n kill big bucks on the yearly and others will not. In the end it comes down to the time ya put in and the friends ya have to make it happen. The season structure simply does not matter when ya put in the time "we" do and have the network "we" have.

The cramming together of the season structure has undeniably led to more overcrowding early and the explosion of non hunters in the BC past 15 or so years does not help either but with that said yea some will do just fine w any change and some will not....

 

[CasNed]

Idea for Colorado.

September 1st - 30th (archery)
October 1st - 10th (muzzle loader)
October 11th - 20th (1st rifle)
October 21st - 30th (2nd rifle)
November 1st - 8th (3rd rifle )
November 9th - 15th (4th rifle)

Also, archery technology and interest has really increased in the last 20 years. Harvest is far easier and higher than it used to be. Quantity of pins, no slider sights, something should change to make it more difficult.

Or maybe allow different weapon possibilities the 1st half of September for the same tag, no sights on bows 1st - 15th, current regs 16th - 30th.

If we get regulations that limit shot distance opportunity on all weapon platforms, we will see less harvest.

 

[littlebigtine]

You coloradans need to get your own thread. This was about idaho before you came along all high and mighty.

 

[CasNed]

You coloradans need to get your own thread. This was about idaho before you came along all high and mighty.

My bad, same weapon restriction for Idaho imo. Make hunting harder.

 

[Foldem]

Make rifle rut hunting rare again

 

[littlebigtine]

Make rifle rut hunting rare again

Idaho baby

 

[AHayes111]

I would bet that he percentage of B&C qualifiers that are never entered has likely been fairly constant over the last 40 years. As a OM I can also say that the number of bucks people claim qualify for B&C is quite a bit larger than the number that actually do. That percentage likely also has been constant.

 

[wind gypsy]

I would bet that he percentage of B&C qualifiers that are never entered has likely been fairly constant over the last 40 years. As a OM I can also say that the number of bucks people claim qualify for B&C is quite a bit larger than the number that actually do. That percentage likely also has been constant.

Made me think a bit. Obviously theres the BSers whether intentional or ignorant but how many so called "booners" do you think hit legit min score gross but not Net but people still call em booners?

 

[wind gypsy]

Haven't read it all and maybe it's been covered - but what % of say ID mule deer bucks do you folks think would have potential to make B&C if not harvested? Obviously depends on year classes, winter, feed, etc during their lifetime but as a general guess?

 

[Customweld]

Haven't read it all and maybe it's been covered - but what % of say ID mule deer bucks do you folks think would have potential to make B&C if not harvested? Obviously depends on year classes, winter, feed, etc during their lifetime but as a general guess?

1-2 percent maybe.

 

[robby denning]

Haven't read it all and maybe it's been covered - but what % of say ID mule deer bucks do you folks think would have potential to make B&C if not harvested? Obviously depends on year classes, winter, feed, etc during their lifetime but as a general guess?

I don’t know, but with my own eyes I can say that I’ve looked at “thousands” of Idaho bucks and only have seen less than 5 net typicals and zero net nontypicals.

 

[littlebigtine]

Haven't read it all and maybe it's been covered - but what % of say ID mule deer bucks do you folks think would have potential to make B&C if not harvested? Obviously depends on year classes, winter, feed, etc during their lifetime but as a general guess?

I have lab aged all my bucks shot since 2021 along with a couple buddies from central idaho units known for good genetics.

2020- 186”- 5-7yrs old
2021- 169”- 9 yrs old
2022- 176”- 8 yrs old
2022- 176”- 5 yrs old
2023- 163”- 6 yrs old
2023- 136”- 4 yrs old
2024- 167”- 7 yrs old


Only a couple of these deer( and some others that I haven’t harvested but recognize scouting) I have watched year over year. It seems like they reach their full potential around that 5 year mark and then they dont tend to change much after that.‍
Oddly enough, all of the mass measurements are pretty average except for the 6 yr old, 5-7 yr old and 9 yr old having 34”-36”

In a decade of hunting Ive only seen maybe 1-2 bucks that would be pushing the 190” mark and that is gross. Never seen or heard of a net typical or non around my neck of the woods

 

[idelkslayer]

This is an interesting turn in the discussion. Does anyone know how the B&C minimum scores were decided? Were they trying to include only the top 1%, 0.1%, or some other threshold? Or was it more arbitrary than that? What factors have influenced what we consider to be a trophy buck? I started this post to discuss the trade-offs and implications of trophy management. What constitutes a trophy is definitely a part of the conversation.

According to those who voted in the thread below, most roksliders think a 160 inch buck would be in the top 7% or less of deer harvested. Is there any other activity where you would be disappointed to be in the top 5-7%?

Thread 'In what percentile is a HARVESTED 160 inch buck on a general unit?'

Jun 15, 2024

We got talking on another thread on here about how common a mature buck is. On a general unit how rare is a harvested 160 inch buck? For sure different areas or different states will have a little higher percentage, not but without getting to specific and anal I'm just talking overall.

• Schoolhousegrizz
• Replies: 48
• Forum: Mule Deer

Maybe hunters in general need a recalibration of what constitutes a trophy. It seems that a 165" buck is trophy especially if he is over 5 years old. Would anyone say that the 9 yr old buck in the quoted post below is not a worthy animal to put a tag on since it only scored 169"? What about the 6 yr old that scored 163" vs the 5 yr old that scored 176"?

How much does trophy management move the needle in terms of percentage of bucks over ### inches of antler?

I have lab aged all my bucks shot since 2021 along with a couple buddies from central idaho units known for good genetics in Idaho.

2020- 186”- 5-7yrs old
2021- 169”- 9 yrs old
2022- 176”- 8 yrs old
2022- 176”- 5 yrs old
2023- 163”- 6 yrs old
2023- 136”- 4 yrs old
2024- 167”- 7 yrs old

Thanks for sharing. That is pretty incredible, 3 hunters (assumed 3 based on you and a "couple buddies") over 4 seasons killed 6 bucks over 5 years old. The range of ages and scores is informative. And this in a general unit and during a series of poor survival years.