Property boundary legal question.

[LongWayAround]

What I fear is that the OP has a person who's been using this access for a long time and as such is somehow grandfathered in. Some of these folks have more right than the landowners.

A case of adverse possession:

Second ex-Boulder judge at center of a land-claim case

The land-dispute case on Hardscrabble Drive isn’t the first time a former Boulder judge has used the legal concept of “adverse possession” to win land from a neighbor.Earlier this…

www.dailycamera.com

 

[NCTrees]

A case of adverse possession:

I think OP is unlikely to be impacted by a case of adverse possession. If I’ve followed along correctly, neighbor has only owned the place for 3 years and in CO it takes 18 to establish standing for AP? Having been involved in an AP suit, I hope so. Not fun.

 

[LongWayAround]

I think OP is unlikely to be impacted by a case of adverse possession. If I’ve followed along correctly, neighbor has only owned the place for 3 years and in CO it takes 18 to establish standing for AP? Having been involved in an AP suit, I hope so. Not fun.

I believe you are correct. I only posted that because it reminded me of Rich's point.

I was actually looking for a different case that I believe to have been in or around Boulder where a guy was driving through another's property to reach his shop and was legally granted access via adverse possession.

 

[Aluminum Rain]

Im not aware of a hand held unit that has 1 ft accuracy. 2 meters is pretty awesome for a handheld. Real survey gps's need to run corrections from a ground station via cell connection to get best accuracy.

 

[nodakian]

Courts generally follow a standard hierarchy of evidence to evaluate boundary matters and decide how they will rule on the location question. The best, highest evidence is the original monument in its original location (good legal reasons exist for this, but that's another discussion). Below that come measurements and directions, and lower still are coordinates and areas. This scheme makes sense because the lower forms are derivatives of the higher.

Coordinates (and all forms of evidence other than the original monuments) are handy methods of documenting corner (and therefore boundary) locations. However, coordinate quality is based on 1) instrument type and 2) whether the instrument has been to the corner before. GPS measurements with phones, handhelds, cars, etc. are only accurate and repeatable to within several feet. Survey-grade GPS is usually accurate and repeatable to within a ping-pong ball. Neither is worth anything if the instrument has never been to the corner before. Occasionally while corner searching I get asked, "doesn't your GPS just tell you where it is?" My response is, "It gets me close, but I've never been here before, so my GPS can't know where it is yet."

Lots of hair splitting in this discussion, but accurate and precise understanding leads toward better outcomes.

 

[nodakian]

I believe you are correct. I only posted that because it reminded me of Rich's point.

I was actually looking for a different case that I believe to have been in or around Boulder where a guy was driving through another's property to reach his shop and was legally granted access via adverse possession.

Access would likely have been via prescriptive easement rather than adverse possession. PEs only give the right to use someone else's property for a particular purpose being claimed, such as a driveway. AP means someone gets title (ownership) to the dirt and all associated rights the loser may have had on that dirt. More hair splitting, but very different effects.

 

[flyinsquirel]

Listen to Nodakian here folks. Don’t listen to anyone who tells you they can establish a missing corner with their phone/Garmin via coordinates they got from a GIS.

 

[Rich M]

Im not aware of a hand held unit that has 1 ft accuracy. 2 meters is pretty awesome for a handheld. Real survey gps's need to run corrections from a ground station via cell connection to get best accuracy.

We have Trimble units for work and they can be used to less than a foot, but this is same stuff surveyors use, not a handheld Garmin.

 

[LongWayAround]

Access would likely have been via prescriptive easement rather than adverse possession. PEs only give the right to use someone else's property for a particular purpose being claimed, such as a driveway. AP means someone gets title (ownership) to the dirt and all associated rights the loser may have had on that dirt. More hair splitting, but very different effects.

I appreciate the clarification.

I actually started my search for that article with "prescriptive easement" but thought I may be wrong when all of the search results came up with "adverse possession."

 

[Vaultman]

Basically what I was thinking, would rather not drop the cash for a surgery, but can’t let it linger for too long.

The cheapo in me just wants him to prove if he has an easement before I pay for a survey. . No easement = survey = he’s gonna have to pay up, his other access is a long ways from his buildings.

A few things:

1. Every State is different. And within a state local ways of surveying do matter, and have an effect.
2. He doesn't have to prove anything until you make him. If he doesn't have an easement (which would be listed in your title report (as well as his, that you don't have)) you have to prove the boundary. Time is on his side until you prove the boundary.
3. You know what G.I.S. stands for? Get It Surveyed!
4. Everywhere I am aware of: a perscriptive easement, or adverse possesion do not just automatially happen. Ajudication is needed. And it if has gone to court, it is findable with some research.

I am licensed land surveyor in two states, but not yours (it appears you said Colorado). I know there are quite a few of us on this forum (@nodakian may be as well). I have worked in many states, under other licensed surveyors. Hire a local land surveyor. That IS your best answer.

And please do not send a GIS map to any adjoining owner and imply that it is correct or even "close". Close is to much of relative term for these matters.

 

[nodakian]

@Vaultman, great summary. If brevity is the soul of wit, I'm in trouble, and my teenagers would agree.

Yes, I'm licensed in three states and do a lot of work with partners in a fourth, and a Certified Federal Surveyor. I focus mostly on what I call land surveying (the legal stuff-boundaries, subdivisions, etc.) and avoid technical surveying (construction, mapping data collection, geodetic, leveling, etc.) whenever possible.

 

[fwafwow]

@Vaultman, great summary. If brevity is the soul of wit, I'm in trouble, and my teenagers would agree.

Yes, I'm licensed in three states and do a lot of work with partners in a fourth, and a Certified Federal Surveyor. I focus mostly on what I call land surveying (the legal stuff-boundaries, subdivisions, etc.) and avoid technical surveying (construction, mapping data collection, geodetic, leveling, etc.) whenever possible.

Thanks for your feedback - and @Vaultman

 

[Unckebob]

Basically what I was thinking, would rather not drop the cash for a surgery, but can’t let it linger for too long.

The cheapo in me just wants him to prove if he has an easement before I pay for a survey. . No easement = survey = he’s gonna have to pay up, his other access is a long ways from his buildings.

Pay for the survey. You could be in the wrong and end up paying more in legal fees because you cheaped out on the front end.

 

[Coopsdaddy]

You can lawyer up all you want,but better check fence laws in your state.
In Oklahoma there is fence laws,survey just shows were it should be.
Now the easement should be filled at court house,if not he doesn’t have a legal one.
Not a lawyer but have been in this situation twice.

 

[TxxAgg]

Interested to hear the outcome

 

[Coopsdaddy]

On a side note,I have a ? on getting a 600 ft easement on a unopened/undeveloped section line.
Any one have experience?

 

[stanginthe11s]

roads can be a tricky thing. there may be no easement, the road could belong to someone else entirely. the outcome may be worse than what you started with. hope things work out for the OP.

coops, have you talked to the owner of the property in which you want to use? the owner would have to agree to your usage, a contract gets drawn up, monies exchanged and everything get filed with the county. If youre the owner and you want to file an easement for future build sites then i belive you survey the section you want so a boundry is created, draw up the legal paperwork for the county and submit it. I have not done it so dont take my word for it lol, but thats what i understand of the proccess. a lot of questions can be answered with a simple call or visit to your county clerks office. even the town supervisor may know a thing or 2.

 

[kwackkillncrew]

and remember if there are 3 surveyors in a thread there is going to be 4 different opinions!

 

[Vaultman]

On a side note,I have a ? on getting a 600 ft easement on a unopened/undeveloped section line.
Any one have experience?

Contact the property owner. If you don't know who that is, contact a local title co. That is where to start. If you get the owner on board, then hire the surveyor and attorney. (IE start free, then pay.)

 

[Mudpuddle]

I do GIS for a living and I'll agree with the surveyors above that the GIS from the county could easily be off. I'd get it surveyed and if he did put that driveway in on your property I'd offer to sell it to him and rid yourself of the headache. No need to have bad blood with your neighbors.