Texas legalizes shooting invasive sheep from a helicopter for sport

[diamond10x]

You also have to remember only a select few of their leased ranches have/had Deserts, where just about every ranch in transpecos from Fort stockton to El Plaso have aoudad(or will at somepoint). When you compare time and effort DBHS pay more with less over head, but you have to have them first. Aoudad is an adaption for transpecos outfitters.

Vast majority of transpecos has aoudads, same can’t be said for DBHS. Unfortunately TXBH or WSF or TPWS cant and wont do anything realistically about aoudad. Remember I hate them, and I use shoot everyone I could. As long as Hunters pay 4500 for Niligai, or Axis or 9k for aoudad, landowners will capitalize on the revenue. This is country where stocking rates are 1-2 section per cow…


TPWD is ran by big ranches period. Hell TAHC is ran by big ranches. Pollis isnt becoming Gov of Texas any time soon, nor would he last long enough to appoint enough open seats

I know how those sky islads of DBH habitat are, for lack of a better term, having spent a decent amount of time in the trans pecos for a kid growing up and living a large portion of my life in the hill country. You're definitely not wrong about everywhere has or will have aoudad out there, no different than wild pigs for the majority of the state as well.

I wouldn't have the issue I have with aoudad and the management strategies around them if they weren't a large reason as to the decline in the wild sheep in Texas. I would never advocate for the state to start dictating to LO's what they can and can't do on their own land, and if they'd rather have aoudad than bighorns then that's their choice but when those animals start affecting habitat and wild sheep on neighboring properties its a serious problem.

My biggest gripe and issue is the lack of outreach and education put out by TPWD, WSF, TBS on the detriment that aoudad cause to native habitat and species. Yes they do some but there is a whole lot more that could be done. I could be wrong, but I have yet to hear of any entities putting out bounties or any such contests to help incentivize LOs, Outfitters, Hunters to want to start really cutting down aoudad numbers in areas in and surrounding current and historic DBH habitat. It doesn't help when WSF puts aoudad into the <1 club and they drive up the trophy/monetary value of an invasive species.

To stay more so on track of the OP, I don't see the helicopter hunting thing changing a single thing with the way things sit right now.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I know how those sky islads of DBH habitat are, for lack of a better term, having spent a decent amount of time in the trans pecos for a kid growing up and living a large portion of my life in the hill country. You're definitely not wrong about everywhere has or will have aoudad out there, no different than wild pigs for the majority of the state as well.

I wouldn't have the issue I have with aoudad and the management strategies around them if they weren't a large reason as to the decline in the wild sheep in Texas. I would never advocate for the state to start dictating to LO's what they can and can't do on their own land, and if they'd rather have aoudad than bighorns then that's their choice but when those animals start affecting habitat and wild sheep on neighboring properties its a serious problem.

My biggest gripe and issue is the lack of outreach and education put out by TPWD, WSF, TBS on the detriment that aoudad cause to native habitat and species. Yes they do some but there is a whole lot more that could be done. I could be wrong, but I have yet to hear of any entities putting out bounties or any such contests to help incentivize LOs, Outfitters, Hunters to want to start really cutting down aoudad numbers in areas in and surrounding current and historic DBH habitat. It doesn't help when WSF puts aoudad into the <1 club and they drive up the trophy/monetary value of an invasive species.

To stay more so on track of the OP, I don't see the helicopter hunting thing changing a single thing with the way things sit right now.

I agree wholeheartedly with you.

The helo thing is same thing they did with hogs, if you kill a bunch and cover your costs cool

 

[Kenny Hart]

Let me get this straight. The Barbary Sheep in Texas are so destructive to the landscape and wildlife that aerial gunning for them has been legalized. But it costs thousands of dollars to hunt them there (average price approx $4500?). If you glance at the New Mexico draw odds it's clear that there is no shortage of people eager to hunt Aoudad. If you are a Texas landowner bitching about the Barbs eating all your cattle forage or outcompeting native wildlife I don't feel bad for you. Count me in as someone that will happily make the drive to West Texas and help with this problem for anyone willing to let me on their land. I promise to be low maintenance and respectful.

This 100%. Ranch owners/outfitters in TX are no different than here in FL with pigs. "Help eradicate and keep invasive animal populations under control" as they actively breed, release, and limit the take of said species. At least you can kill a couple recently-released pigs for a few hundred bucks, the cost to be driven around on a SxS to shoot an aoudad these days is in the realm of ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I love pig hunting and had a blast chasing my Aoudad this year, but it's not hard to eradicate or sufficiently deplete entire populations of social herd animals from a landscape. We did it so well that over a century ago we hardly had any, and that was before all of the hunters and technology of today.

The entire reason pigs and aoudad are "out of control" in specific areas (seemingly near-exclusive to private ranches with no limit to hunting seasons....hmmmm) is because states and landowners are heavily incentivized to market them to hunters and make access exclusive.

 

[JGRaider]

I doubt Texas landowners want entitled thinking hunters on their place anyway. If you think you can eradicate aoudad from the wide open, rough expanses of West TX you're sadly mistaken.

 

[RdRdrFan]

This 100%. Ranch owners/outfitters in TX are no different than here in FL with pigs. "Help eradicate and keep invasive animal populations under control" as they actively breed, release, and limit the take of said species. At least you can kill a couple recently-released pigs for a few hundred bucks, the cost to be driven around on a SxS to shoot an aoudad these days is in the realm of ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I love pig hunting and had a blast chasing my Aoudad this year, but it's not hard to eradicate or sufficiently deplete entire populations of social herd animals from a landscape. We did it so well that over a century ago we hardly had any, and that was before all of the hunters and technology of today.

The entire reason pigs and aoudad are "out of control" in specific areas (seemingly near-exclusive to private ranches with no limit to hunting seasons....hmmmm) is because states and landowners are heavily incentivized to market them to hunters and make access exclusive.

If you want it that way then by all means buy a large tract of land and let everyone come and hunt it so you can eliminate the hogs (or aoudad). Otherwise, quit being entitled and acting like your interests are altruistic. You guys just want cheap access to other folks property and want to criticize them when they don’t. It’s an easy solution. Pay millions (or in a lot of cases in that area tens of millions) and buy a ranch there.

As for pigs, I have no clue what they are doing in Florida and couldn’t care less. Eradicate pigs in Texas (and likely Florida)…..impossible. The numbers and nature of the animal makes it a literal impossibility.

One sow will have 3 litters per year. Each litter has between 8 and 14 babies (let’s call it 10 for calculating it). Let’s say that each litter is split 50/50 with boars and gilts. Those gilts will lay down and have their first litter at 1 year old. So 1 pregnant sow walks onto a ranch and lays down and has her babies the next day. In 3 years time there will have been over 7,000 baby pigs born on that property. The rate at which pigs can reproduce is astounding and to say that they can knock em out in no time is just a silly and uneducated take.

 

[Kenny Hart]

If you want it that way then by all means buy a large tract of land and let everyone come and hunt it so you can eliminate the hogs (or aoudad). Otherwise, quit being entitled and acting like your interests are altruistic. You guys just want cheap access to other folks property and want to criticize them when they don’t. It’s an easy solution. Pay millions (or in a lot of cases in that area tens of millions) and buy a ranch there.

As for pigs, I have no clue what they are doing in Florida and couldn’t care less. Eradicate pigs in Texas (and likely Florida)…..impossible. The numbers and nature of the animal makes it a literal impossibility.

One sow will have 3 litters per year. Each litter has between 8 and 14 babies (let’s call it 10 for calculating it). Let’s say that each litter is split 50/50 with boars and gilts. Those gilts will lay down and have their first litter at 1 year old. So 1 pregnant sow walks onto a ranch and lays down and has her babies the next day. In 3 years time there will have been over 7,000 baby pigs born on that property. The rate at which pigs can reproduce is astounding and to say that they can knock em out in no time is just a silly and uneducated take.

Why is the go-to response always "buy your own land and do what you want?". That makes no sense and is just a straw man. I don't have to because I can buy tags for cheap and go do what I want on public. And that public is generally managed fairly effectively to keep invasive populations in check.

And it is the hunting industry that keeps many invasive numbers high. On our wildlife refuges in where they want to eliminate hogs due to sensitive nesting bird and turtle populations, they do it. It takes one single trap with bait to capture entire groups of sows and piglets.

This also happens in other states up north where G&F don't incentivise hog hunting because they have an eliminate all hogs policy.

And yes, nearly every private hunting ranch releases hogs to hunt, yet every single one of their websites will talk all about how they are destructive invasives, and you're "doing your part" by coming in and apparently shooting a single pig out of the herd.

I'm not hating on pig or Aoudad hunting, they are both very cool animals and a very welcome opportunity. But you can't charge $5-10k for each hunter to kill one animal and then whine about your inability to manage their "out of control" populations. Those two things cannot exist in the same reality.

 

[JGRaider]

Why is the go-to response always "buy your own land and do what you want?". That makes no sense and is just a straw man. I don't have to because I can buy tags for cheap and go do what I want on public. And that public is generally managed fairly effectively to keep invasive populations in check.

And it is the hunting industry that keeps many invasive numbers high. On our wildlife refuges in where they want to eliminate hogs due to sensitive nesting bird and turtle populations, they do it. It takes one single trap with bait to capture entire groups of sows and piglets.

This also happens in other states up north where G&F don't incentivise hog hunting because they have an eliminate all hogs policy.

And yes, nearly every private hunting ranch releases hogs to hunt, yet every single one of their websites will talk all about how they are destructive invasives, and you're "doing your part" by coming in and apparently shooting a single pig out of the herd.

I'm not hating on pig or Aoudad hunting, they are both very cool animals and a very welcome opportunity. But you can't charge $5-10k for each hunter to kill one animal and then whine about your inability to manage their "out of control" populations. Those two things cannot exist in the same reality.

Yet here you are crying about those mean ol' Texas landowners who charge for acess/hunting. Give me a break.

 

[RdRdrFan]

Why is the go-to response always "buy your own land and do what you want?". That makes no sense and is just a straw man. I don't have to because I can buy tags for cheap and go do what I want on public. And that public is generally managed fairly effectively to keep invasive populations in check.

And it is the hunting industry that keeps many invasive numbers high. On our wildlife refuges in where they want to eliminate hogs due to sensitive nesting bird and turtle populations, they do it. It takes one single trap with bait to capture entire groups of sows and piglets.

This also happens in other states up north where G&F don't incentivise hog hunting because they have an eliminate all hogs policy.

And yes, nearly every private hunting ranch releases hogs to hunt, yet every single one of their websites will talk all about how they are destructive invasives, and you're "doing your part" by coming in and apparently shooting a single pig out of the herd.

I'm not hating on pig or Aoudad hunting, they are both very cool animals and a very welcome opportunity. But you can't charge $5-10k for each hunter to kill one animal and then whine about your inability to manage their "out of control" populations. Those two things cannot exist in the same reality.

It’s not a straw man argument at all. It exposes the reality of the position you choose to take and THAT is why you don’t like it.

Pigs cannot be eliminated short of a nationwide mandate to poison them. You can make it uncomfortable enough on smaller acreage to have them move or spend more time on adjacent properties. But in the areas where they thrive, you are not getting rid of them by trapping, helicopters, etc. The second biggest reason for this beyond their ability to reproduce at unheard of rates is their intelligence. They are smarter AND can reproduce faster than any other animal you can hunt in North America.

I own land in Texas. We kill hogs on sight. Doesn’t matter if we are hunting other animals. Hogs die. We do what we can. You want to know what we dislike more than hogs though? Entitled a-holes. We don’t allow anyone outside of close friends or family onto our land. Allowing extra folks to come hunt hogs doesn’t really make a dent in the population and then I have to deal with allowing them onto my property. Extra expenses (more liability insurance) and extra headache.

Two things can be true at the same time. Truth 1 - hate pigs. They are destructive and impossible to eliminate. I’d gladly take a quality option that would eliminate them from the entire state of Texas. Truth 2 - It’s not worth what I can charge to allow people to come onto my land to hunt them.

 

[OMB]

Got the latest WSF magazine in the mail today, and looks like they're maybe thinking about choosing sides.

On MOVI and desert bighorns in Texas: "The conclusion- you cannot have aoudad and desert bighorn sheep- you have to pick one."

"And with an estimated 100,000+ aoudad on the landscape, nothing short of sustained culling programs will make a dent."

Happy to read this, would love to see aoudad wiped off the face of the continent, but it's also going to take some walking back and maybe even outright shaming of outfitters running hunts and those that buy them. I get that sheep hunting is expensive and aoudad have been sold as this "poor man's sheep hunt", but desert sheep prices have come down with everything's that been done in Mexico. There could be a future where the easy button affordable hunt is a desert in Mexico or Texas instead of a Dall if enough people buy in.

 

[Kenny Hart]

Yet here you are crying about those mean ol' Texas landowners who charge for acess/hunting. Give me a break.

If you read my response, that's not what I said at all.

I merely point out the glaring hypocrisy in actions vs words.

 

[Kenny Hart]

It’s not a straw man argument at all. It exposes the reality of the position you choose to take and THAT is why you don’t like it.

Pigs cannot be eliminated short of a nationwide mandate to poison them. You can make it uncomfortable enough on smaller acreage to have them move or spend more time on adjacent properties. But in the areas where they thrive, you are not getting rid of them by trapping, helicopters, etc. The second biggest reason for this beyond their ability to reproduce at unheard of rates is their intelligence. They are smarter AND can reproduce faster than any other animal you can hunt in North America.

I own land in Texas. We kill hogs on sight. Doesn’t matter if we are hunting other animals. Hogs die. We do what we can. You want to know what we dislike more than hogs though? Entitled a-holes. We don’t allow anyone outside of close friends or family onto our land. Allowing extra folks to come hunt hogs doesn’t really make a dent in the population and then I have to deal with allowing them onto my property. Extra expenses (more liability insurance) and extra headache.

Two things can be true at the same time. Truth 1 - hate pigs. They are destructive and impossible to eliminate. I’d gladly take a quality option that would eliminate them from the entire state of Texas. Truth 2 - It’s not worth what I can charge to allow people to come onto my land to hunt them.

A straw man is creating an a position that I never took to divert attention and effort away from the main point that cannot be defended properly by the other party.

My position is not that land owners don't have the right to charge for hunting, or limit the liability of allowing unaccompanied people to run all over their property.

So what exactly does it expose? That it isn't a conflicting message to say "come help squash this massive population while we actively stock our property with those very animals?"

Or "help us control the population by paying $10k to shoot a single past-prime male?"

Neither of those scenarios are based in reality or science, so it's hard to sympathize with those very same individuals when they complain about needing enormous measures to reduce their numbers. Especially when game and fish can accomplish as much time and time again.

I hunted my Aoudad in NM, right across the border on public. There were not mass herds of them roaming all over the landscape, I saw a couple 2-3 member here and there, and one of about 24 individuals over multiple large tracts across the unit, and glassed up far more mule deer day-in, day out despite being far more difficult to spot.

So where did they all go if control of the population is so easily lost?

Everything you said about the difficulty of eliminating or heavily reducing pigs is correct, and mirrors that of Aoudad. You aren't going to put a dent in the population by shooting a single animal here and there. It requires sudden and mass trapping, or consistent, heavy, and non-discriminatory hunting of breeding-age females.

 

[JGRaider]

NM has never had anywhere near the populations of aoudad as their TX neighbors in the Trans Pecos or panhandle for that matter. Guess again.

 

[RdRdrFan]

A straw man is creating an a position that I never took to divert attention and effort away from the main point that cannot be defended properly by the other party.

My position is not that land owners don't have the right to charge for hunting, or limit the liability of allowing unaccompanied people to run all over their property.

So what exactly does it expose? That it isn't a conflicting message to say "come help squash this massive population while we actively stock our property with those very animals?"

Or "help us control the population by paying $10k to shoot a single past-prime male?"

Neither of those scenarios are based in reality or science, so it's hard to sympathize with those very same individuals when they complain about needing enormous measures to reduce their numbers. Especially when game and fish can accomplish as much time and time again.

I hunted my Aoudad in NM, right across the border on public. There were not mass herds of them roaming all over the landscape, I saw a couple 2-3 member here and there, and one of about 24 individuals over multiple large tracts across the unit, and glassed up far more mule deer day-in, day out despite being far more difficult to spot.

So where did they all go if control of the population is so easily lost?

Everything you said about the difficulty of eliminating or heavily reducing pigs is correct, and mirrors that of Aoudad. You aren't going to put a dent in the population by shooting a single animal here and there. It requires sudden and mass trapping, or consistent, heavy, and non-discriminatory hunting of breeding-age females.

I’m still aware of what a straw man argument is. Still not a straw man argument. Never has been. I directly addressed the positions that several of you took and the fact that your original position is indefensible isn’t my fault.

What does it expose? Not to sound rude or demeaning but you did ask. This entire discussion has exposed the ignorance several of you have of the entire situation as well as your entitlement (and possible jealousy?). The original complaint was that land owners in Texas are charging what you deem to be too much for access to hunt an invasive species and that they have no right to complain about that species or the damage that they cause. The fact that the comparison of pigs in Florida came into the discussion further proves the lack of knowledge and understanding. Faced with the ridiculous nature of the original comments which were peppered with several posters stating that they would gladly come and help kill the aoudad, you have now altered course (slightly) to let game and fish handle it and trap them. TPWD doesn’t need to manage ANYTHING. Decent people for the most part but not always competent when it comes to game management. Just look at the areas of the state that formerly held world class mule deer.

Your comments about New Mexico proves that you have very little to no knowledge of the situation here in Texas. 99% of the area “right across the border” from Texas into New Mexico is not prime aoudad territory. Are there some aoudad here and there? Yes. Is the landscape and environment such that they can thrive? Absolutely not. It is a wildly different ecological landscape. Time and again people forget how big Texas is and how varied the ecosystems are. For the record, there aren’t really any great populations of aoudad in Texas that are on the New Mexico border. There’s a smattering of them in the northern panhandle but if you hunted them there (not in the Big Bend area) you would have a similar experience to what you had in NM.

Outside of high fence operations where they allow them to breed for people to sit in a blind and shoot one over a feeder, nobody is “breeding” aoudad. Not in the areas that are up for discussion (where they are affecting the DBH). To say that anyone of those ranchers are “actively stocking” their ranch with aoudad is complete ignorance. Not one of them stocks aoudad. The population is out of control in certain areas because the ecosystem that is prime for DBH is also the ecosystem that is prime for aoudad. What you experienced in NM is the aoudad’s ability to exist in a very sub-prime environment. They don’t thrive there but it has NOTHING to do with anything humans are doing.

 

[Weldor]

Why so much animosity? I have hunted Texas for a long time, that being said it has always been pay to play. Some times expensive some times not. The ranch we hunt like all the rest have cost increase's just like any other business. Food. fuel, you know the drill. Charging to hunt Aoudad is not a new thing. Management who knows? Texas is like it's own country LOL

 

[Kenny Hart]

NM has never had anywhere near the populations of aoudad as their TX neighbors in the Trans Pecos or panhandle for that matter. Guess again.

And why is that?

 

[JGRaider]

And why is that?

RdRdrFan spelled it out for you above. No need to repeat for your sake. Read it again.

 

[cuerro viejo]

And why is that?

Because of the large amounts public land.
But..
For the same reason they cant exterminate them in NM where they don’t want them (example unit 34) is same reason you can’t exterminate them in Texas. Private property. Not all private property owners are pro hunting, or pro trespass or pro stranger

Now add


NM has lots of OTC units to hunt aoudad in that are open essentially year round…. How many people are packing a Ewe out? How many are passing on sub adult rams… etc

 

[Kenny Hart]

RdRdrFan spelled it out for you above. No need to repeat for your sake. Read it again.

I apologize for only taking the moment to read your first, but I'm not sure why a "See RdRdrFan response for my position" wasn't all that was necessary. I promise to do better in the future and save your comment for last.

I'll read his later and consider his points.

Because of the large amounts public land.
But..
For the same reason they cant exterminate them in NM where they don’t want them (example unit 34) is same reason you can’t exterminate them in Texas. Private property. Not all private property owners are pro hunting, or pro trespass or pro stranger

Now add


NM has lots of OTC units to hunt aoudad in that are open essentially year round…. How many people are packing a Ewe out? How many are passing on sub adult rams… etc

This explanation is exactly my point. No matter where you go, the common denominator of extreme animal populations is private property and how they prioritize management.

And extermination isn't the same as heavily reduced to a manageable population, I may have used them somewhat interchangeably but to your point, NM allows a few exotics to thrive within a certain core range where they fill an ecological niche and have relatively low competitive impact with native species. Then outside of that do a very effective job of keeping that population essentially crushed, with the odd band of animals turning up here and there.

And I'll admit fault for just generalizing landowners but I'm generally expecting some good will on the part of those I'm having a conversation with to know I'm not talking about the small guys stuck in between major population hubs (caused by landowners who see a value in keeping them around) and who truly want/need them gone (I'd wager not likely not the guys who own helicopters to offer hunts from, but I digress)

But allow me to propose a hypothetical. Say I pay a Texas outfitter $10k to shoot a giant Aoudad. So he drives me around, we find a canyon to check, and there he is...Aoudad of my dreams standing on the opposite wall surrounded by his giant harem of equals, younger males, and ewes.

If I were to get set up, then turn to him and say, "Hey, I hear these guys have a major negative impact on the environment and are super overpopulated. I know my hunt agreement said one mature male sheep, and popping one of those ewes should cost me $4k, but how set in stone is that really? What do you say I put a bullet into him, then you and I unload on as many as we can before they make it over the ridge? Won't cost you a dime, and we eradicate some pests."

He can do whatever he wants, it's his/his boss's land, but what would you honestly expect the response to be?

If it's anything other than "sure," and I knew they had petitioned for this rule in the name of necessary population control, I'm not going to get mad, complain, or lecture how unfair that is, but I absolutely have all of the ground to stand on to rib them about it a bit.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I apologize for only taking the moment to read your first, but I'm not sure why a "See RdRdrFan response for my position" wasn't all that was necessary. I promise to do better in the future and save your comment for last.

I'll read his later and consider his points.



This explanation is exactly my point. No matter where you go, the common denominator of extreme animal populations is private property and how they prioritize management.

And extermination isn't the same as heavily reduced to a manageable population, I may have used them somewhat interchangeably but to your point, NM allows a few exotics to thrive within a certain core range where they fill an ecological niche and have relatively low competitive impact with native species. Then outside of that do a very effective job of keeping that population essentially crushed, with the odd band of animals turning up here and there.

And I'll admit fault for just generalizing landowners but I'm generally expecting some good will on the part of those I'm having a conversation with to know I'm not talking about the small guys stuck in between major population hubs (caused by landowners who see a value in keeping them around) and who truly want/need them gone (I'd wager not likely not the guys who own helicopters to offer hunts from, but I digress)

But allow me to propose a hypothetical. Say I pay a Texas outfitter $10k to shoot a giant Aoudad. So he drives me around, we find a canyon to check, and there he is...Aoudad of my dreams standing on the opposite wall surrounded by his giant harem of equals, younger males, and ewes.

If I were to get set up, then turn to him and say, "Hey, I hear these guys have a major negative impact on the environment and are super overpopulated. I know my hunt agreement said one mature male sheep, and popping one of those ewes should cost me $4k, but how set in stone is that really? What do you say I put a bullet into him, then you and I unload on as many as we can before they make it over the ridge? Won't cost you a dime, and we eradicate some pests."

He can do whatever he wants, it's his/his boss's land, but what would you honestly expect the response to be?

If it's anything other than "sure," and I knew they had petitioned for this rule in the name of necessary population control, I'm not going to get mad, complain, or lecture how unfair that is, but I absolutely have all of the ground to stand on to rib them about it a bit.

His response is going to be no. It’s a job for them, no different then asking for a second free meal at a restaurant

One you are now basically herd shooting after first shot, second he is on the clock as an employee, he gets paid by the hunt, not by the animal and with out landowner permission in Texas you could face step civil charges, as you have to have expressed permission from LO or LO agent( that has expressed permission) for every exotic you shot.

Now he may let you cull ewes if he really likes you and they feel the need to, but probably at a fee that’s mutually beneficial and adequate enough to make it worth their while.

When you hunt in Texas you most likely signed a contract, you and outfitter are in a contract again as it’s their livelihood now

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Again, if it wasn’t legal to charge money for hunts, then these “I love my private property rights” landowners would be begging for state assistance in killing them.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”