Property boundary legal question.

[KenLee]

That's a plus!

You give closing lawyers too much credit

 

[*zap*]

was the neighbor 'friendly'?

 

[KenLee]

GIS mistakes probably cause many arguments. On one of my property lines, GIS shows one of my stands on a neighboring property and one if his stands on mine.
We laugh about the possible need to call the other to prosecute a tresspasser.

 

[Rich M]

You give closing lawyers too much credit

What I fear is that the OP has a person who's been using this access for a long time and as such is somehow grandfathered in. Some of these folks have more right than the landowners.

 

[KenLee]

What I fear is that the OP has a person who's been using this access for a long time and as such is somehow grandfathered in. Some of these folks have more right than the landowners.

OP stated that owner used for 3 yrs, but some states let "adverse possessors" stack their time. Real Property rights are state specific.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Fencelines do not equal property lines. I learned this after getting into a trespassing debate with the tenant that farms the land surrounding our farm. To make a long story short, it turned out my east fencline was 16' west of the actual surveyors posts. I tore out my fence and re-installed it on the actual line and gained 16'x250'. I also gained a bunch of rotting old trees and brushpiles, but the cleanup was more than worth the effort, and the tenant and I are on the same page (although grudgingly in his case).

 

[stanginthe11s]

it will really be interesting when you find out that neither of you own the road lol. these things do happen.
just curious, but which house is older?

 

[Rokbar]

Years back had a neighbor who thought he "knew where his property line was" put in a well. Neighbor #2 didnt say shit......until after his new well was installed!

Get the survey!

Wish I could double-like this!

 

[SwiftShot]

Survey it as soon as possible and fix the issue. Play the nice guy and you will be the one losing.

 

[Predator_SD]

Never let someone take advantage of your kindness. I’d get the survey, lawyer up, then be as accommodating and neighborly as always, it’s just business.

 

[Tod osier]

Lot of good advice so far. We had an issue on our last place and I let my wife's want to not make waves drag it out way to long (lesson 1). It caused way too much strife between us and let the neighbors ignorance or arrogance (or both) bring me down for too long (the dispute included us owning a bit of a run down barn that we didn't want to own and was resolved by a land swap). People are dicks and show their true colors when they are wrong and you push them (not a surprise, but lesson 2), it is also amusing to see the lengths they will go to to maintain the narrative they they are right.

Get a stake job (what folks are calling a survey here). We found the town/county helpful, but listening to them cost us some money and drug it out a bit, but they had good perspective. A good lawyer to move things forward once you know the status.

Try to find the original survey firm or who owns their files. That may make things less expensive or easier.

 

[Pony Soldier]

For many of you in civilized country the assumption of a previous survey is valid. In Montana there are many areas that have never been surveyed. When I bought my place it had fences that had existed for nearly 100 years. The family I bought it from had fenced the land they needed - not what they owned. In places the fence wandered up to a couple hundred yards into the national forest. South of me, a survey showed that 40 acres of their meadow was actually national forest.

With GIS survey systems and google earth it is much easier to see / establish property lines in heavy timber and radical topography. Also since the original subdivision of land, I have found all sections are not 640 acres. I found one in Oregon that was over 1200 acres.

Some fences in place for over 5 years with mutual agreement of neighbors can be a boundary. The states have differant rules. A survey removes the surprises.

 

[NCTrees]

Two separate issues are in play here: location and title/entitlements, or "where" and "what". It took me years to sort this out in my head, so I offer this summary I hope is helpful.

There are two types of surveys: original and retracement. An original is where a surveyor creates new boundaries, such as in a new subdivision. A retracement is where a surveyor tries to find the lines created by a prior surveyor. The OP's situation requires a retracement.

In a retracement, a surveyor's job is to provide a well-reasoned opinion regarding location--where a property or easement was actually placed. His opinion should be based on evidence such as fence and road locations, historical records of prior surveys, measurements, and testimony of local owners. Some information is useful, some not. In most cases, a surveyor's opinion is good (and cost effective) enough that adjoining owners will go with it. However, if they head to court, the surveyor must defend his opinion to a judge. A judge will lean heavily on the surveyor's opinion of the where question. If things go this far, each side will have their dueling surveyors, and the judge is more likely to rule on the location question in favor of the surveyor whom he believes is better prepared. This is where the cheap, measurement-only surveyor often takes a beating.

Regarding title (ownership) and entitlements (easements in OP's situation)--the what question: A deed or grant is only evidence of title--what is the property or easement. If OP's deed says he bought Lot 1, he probably owns Lot 1. If the neighbor has an easement grant, he probably has an easement. However, only a judge has the authority to definitively answer the what question, and he will lean on well-prepared attorneys.

A good surveyor is an expert in both issues. He knows how law applies to interpreting what he is supposed to survey, and he is an expert at gathering evidence of where a property or entitlement is situated. Fortunately, most lay people defer to his opinions, which keeps things civil. And he's still cheaper than an attorney.

I caution most folks against trying to sort this out on their own, at least in case of potential conflict. Researching deeds, easements, survey documents, etc. is one thing, but mathematical and legal principles must be applied when interpreting them. And in the end, without a surveyor, the where question will never be answered.

Thanks for reading my morning treatise. I hope it is helpful.

I’m not a surveyor but rely upon them fairly often. I have not heard of survey work put in the original vs. retracement terms before and maybe need to understand these better. In my experience, I hire the surveyors to establish “hard” property lines. Basically finding previously set corners or setting new ones. Then, establishing the line between them with blazes, lathe or in short term situations pins or flagging. In these situations it seems to me it’s moderately simple math, with the surveyors opinion having little to do with it. I guess there could be surveyor vs. surveyor disagreements on the math? I’m not working in areas where metes/ bounds are used or against old Spanish land grant properties, just straight up PLSS. Thanks for the write up.

 

[mi650]

About 2 years after I bought my property, I was tracking a deer I'd shot and found some brand new No Trespassing signs going across my land, 100 yards inside the property line. I knew immediately who had done it. Went to talk to the guy.

At first he said the signs weren't for me. No kidding they aren't for me, they're on my land! Then he tried telling me that he had always hunted there, previous owner let him. Uh no, you just bought your 5 acres a year ago, a year after I bought my land. So I'm the previous owner as far as you're concerned.

Tried to stay on good terms with him. The final straw was one evening about an hour before sundown. I was sitting in my treestand, and he came walking thru with his dog. Said he was coming to see if I was home. The next morning, I put new signs on every tree along the line.



Oh, and the time I 1st met him: I had gone to the store with a nephew. My son, daughter, another nephew, and my wife were riding 4-wheelers thru our trails. He showed up with a 1911 in a shoulder holster and a pistol grip Mossberg 500 in his hand. Said he was tracking a coyote he'd shot and found our new trails going across his land. I got back from the store, we went for a walk and discussed the property line. This was 6 months before he put up the signs across my ridge.

 

[doc holiday13]

just my opinion but rather than spend money right away go down to the town office and request a tax map. then go to the county and check old deeds like was mentioned and find past surveys. at one time that land was divided so if you put in the time, you will save money. if you don't have time then a lawyer and surveyor will do the work for you, but it will cost you. also, like mentioned, be careful who you get to do the survey. I'll also add, be sure of what you want and are doing because you will be ruffling feathers and you may not only be wrong but find out there was more that neither of you knew. a little leg work can save you a lot of money and aggravation.

This.. Also corners are defined by GPS coordinates so you can get within a foot with a handheld. Mark each GPS coordinate with a flag and do a line of site. Ignore if he bitches because he knows damn well where his property line is

 

[nodakian]

I’m not a surveyor but rely upon them fairly often. I have not heard of survey work put in the original vs. retracement terms before and maybe need to understand these better. In my experience, I hire the surveyors to establish “hard” property lines. Basically finding previously set corners or setting new ones. Then, establishing the line between them with blazes, lathe or in short term situations pins or flagging. In these situations it seems to me it’s moderately simple math, with the surveyors opinion having little to do with it. I guess there could be surveyor vs. surveyor disagreements on the math? I’m not working in areas where metes/ bounds are used or against old Spanish land grant properties, just straight up PLSS. Thanks for the write up.

I hope this isn't derailing the OP's thread too much, and I hope he keeps us posted as his situation unfolds, but there seems to be some interest in the general topic of land surveying. Therefore, I offer another morning essay.

As with any business and profession, surveying has specialty terms which are often misunderstood and/or misused by both surveyors and non-surveyors, and local vernacular adds more variation. Together, it's a constant struggle to keep things straight, and surveyors cause much mayhem by misunderstanding and misapplying their own professional and local terms. I don't have all the answers, but I attempt to periodically re-educate myself on the standard legal and professional definitions and both federal and state case law.

Boundaries are immeasurably narrow lines, with corners (geographic locations) on each end which are ideally marked by monuments (physical objects) and possibly accessories (additional objects), between legal entities we will call parcels. The original monument in its original location is the most conclusive evidence of a corner, and therefore boundary line, location.

Only two kinds of boundaries can exist: 1) those previously created by deeds (with descriptions written by surveyors or, god forbid, lawyers or title people), or a surveyor via plats, or similar legal instruments or 2) those to be created in the future. Therefore, only two kinds of surveys can exist: retracement or original.

In the PLSS, the original GLO surveys established corners, set monuments, and created the lines. Every survey thereafter (unless the US Govt re-surveys its own land) is a an attempt to retrace the original GLO-created lines. The modern surveyor's job is to find the original line location because current owners' titles extend to the original lines. Ideally, the modern surveyor can find the original monuments marking the original corners, but time, careless owners, landslides, etc. make this difficult. Therefore, the modern surveyor must be an expert at gathering and analyzing other evidence to form a well-reasoned, defensible opinion as to the original corner, and therefore line, location.

"Hard" property lines and your subsequent descriptions sound like a local term for a retracement survey in which the original lines are found (by finding corners/monuments), and corners are possibly rehabilitated or remonumented. The line is established only by the corner which are ideally marked with monuments. Accessories in the form of blazes, lath, flagging, etc. point to the line and/or corner.

Surveyors disagree on measurements, rather than math, all the time. You'll recognize the measurement superhero because he will put a new monument an inch from an existing one because his measurement capabilities are superior. Or he will not set a new monument but claim the existing one is "out of position". In my observation, this is 50% or more of surveyors, and they are often the low-price leaders. They do not understand what they are doing. (Rant over....for now.)

I leave you all with one of the best explanations ever written of a surveyor's role.
The Quasi-Judicial Function of Surveyors

Again, thanks for your patience with my lengthy essays and indulging my writing bug. I hope they continue to be helpful.

 

[LongWayAround]

This.. Also corners are defined by GPS coordinates so you can get within a foot with a handheld. Mark each GPS coordinate with a flag and do a line of site. Ignore if he bitches because he knows damn well where his property line is

Incorrect. GPS coordinates do not define property corners. Coordinates could be anything. They can be relative to a small site or a much larger area, derived from an arbitrary number or scaled from a state plane system. GPS store latitude and longitude and convert it to local coordinates.

Property corners are defined by prior monumentation and distances from such. In the case where no such monuments exist or can be located, lines of occupation and prior use inform decisions about where they are located.

Recorded plats will show bearings and distances from previously set monuments. They will not show latitude and longitude.

I do, fairly often, use my OnX to get in the ballpark for section and property corners but between error in handheld/phone and assessor maps, it is not as reliable as your statement suggests.

Handheld GPS accuracy is also more like thirty feet- depending on where you are.

 

[LongWayAround]

What I fear is that the OP has a person who's been using this access for a long time and as such is somehow grandfathered in. Some of these folks have more right than the landowners.

A case of adverse possession:

Second ex-Boulder judge at center of a land-claim case

The land-dispute case on Hardscrabble Drive isn’t the first time a former Boulder judge has used the legal concept of “adverse possession” to win land from a neighbor.Earlier this…

www.dailycamera.com

 

[NCTrees]

A case of adverse possession:

I think OP is unlikely to be impacted by a case of adverse possession. If I’ve followed along correctly, neighbor has only owned the place for 3 years and in CO it takes 18 to establish standing for AP? Having been involved in an AP suit, I hope so. Not fun.

 

[LongWayAround]

I think OP is unlikely to be impacted by a case of adverse possession. If I’ve followed along correctly, neighbor has only owned the place for 3 years and in CO it takes 18 to establish standing for AP? Having been involved in an AP suit, I hope so. Not fun.

I believe you are correct. I only posted that because it reminded me of Rich's point.

I was actually looking for a different case that I believe to have been in or around Boulder where a guy was driving through another's property to reach his shop and was legally granted access via adverse possession.