Property boundary legal question.

[fwafwow]

As others have said, get a quality surveyor and a quality lawyer (the latter need not, and IMHO should not, be a pit bull, as aggression doesn’t always equate to great results). You skimped once, so I suggest you don’t do so again.

 

[Bluumoon]

Sounds like a pretty solid consensus. Thanks for the feedback. Will update when I’ve done the survey.

 

[Bubblehide]

Looking forward to the update

 

[kybuck1]

A survey is the definite answer and probably should be done either way. However, for peace of mind and cheaper you could always check all the past deeds for your property and the neighbor. At least here in KY all the easements and such are documented in there.

 

[cnelk]

FWIW - the most recent survey I had done cost $5200

 

[stanginthe11s]

just my opinion but rather than spend money right away go down to the town office and request a tax map. then go to the county and check old deeds like was mentioned and find past surveys. at one time that land was divided so if you put in the time, you will save money. if you don't have time then a lawyer and surveyor will do the work for you, but it will cost you. also, like mentioned, be careful who you get to do the survey. I'll also add, be sure of what you want and are doing because you will be ruffling feathers and you may not only be wrong but find out there was more that neither of you knew. a little leg work can save you a lot of money and aggravation.

 

[def90]

Survey it so you know what you are looking at and then approach the neighbor and work out a reasonable solution if his road does indeed cross your property. If you don't say anything in order to be the nice guy you'll just end up losing your land in the end.

 

[Steve300xcw]

FWIW - the most recent survey I had done cost $5200

How big was the property though?

 

[ben h]

I had something similar happen to me on a property we purchased in about 2012. One of the adjacent landowners had a fence, shed and other improvements on part of the property (from before we purchased it). Our lot was surveyed to the legal description which was not the same as the fence lines. We knew about it and informed the landowners, tore down the shed and removed some of the fencing but didn't do anything about one section of fence until about 2018. We approached the landowner about replacing the delapidated fence with a new one and put it on the correct property line. They lawyered up immediately and claimed the land by "acquiesence" because the fences had been the presumed boundaries for so long. that now they were the boundary. They didn't put the fences up when they bought the property, so they thought it was the existing fenceline. Turns out they had a pretty good case for their claim of acquiesence and it took about 3 years with lawyers to reach an agreement. Our title policy paid for our lawyer and I bet that was expensive. We ended up giving them a sliver of what they originally wanted and we settled to get it over with and had we not settled, we could have lost in court, because acquescense is a real claim and from this expierience, I think more often than not, fences and other markings from prior owners, do NOT mark the boundaries and that's especially true on vacant land.

If I'm in this situation again, which I'm sure will happen, I'd get a survey based off your legal description and do your research presuming they're encroaching on you. I wouldn't say anything about what you're doing until you know for sure (you may find you're encroaching on others). I wonder what would have happened if we would have not said anything to the adjacent land owners and just tore the old fence out and replaced it on the line? Our lawyer advised against doing that and I think they would have sued us, but at least we'd be the defendant and not the plaintif. I think it costs more $ to be a plaintif, but that's my theory.

 

[cnelk]

How big was the property though?

5 ac

 

[Rich M]

I can't believe anyone would buy land without a survey and title/deed history review. The title/deed will list any easements or such and the survey will tell you what you own.

 

[nodakian]

Two separate issues are in play here: location and title/entitlements, or "where" and "what". It took me years to sort this out in my head, so I offer this summary I hope is helpful.

There are two types of surveys: original and retracement. An original is where a surveyor creates new boundaries, such as in a new subdivision. A retracement is where a surveyor tries to find the lines created by a prior surveyor. The OP's situation requires a retracement.

In a retracement, a surveyor's job is to provide a well-reasoned opinion regarding location--where a property or easement was actually placed. His opinion should be based on evidence such as fence and road locations, historical records of prior surveys, measurements, and testimony of local owners. Some information is useful, some not. In most cases, a surveyor's opinion is good (and cost effective) enough that adjoining owners will go with it. However, if they head to court, the surveyor must defend his opinion to a judge. A judge will lean heavily on the surveyor's opinion of the where question. If things go this far, each side will have their dueling surveyors, and the judge is more likely to rule on the location question in favor of the surveyor whom he believes is better prepared. This is where the cheap, measurement-only surveyor often takes a beating.

Regarding title (ownership) and entitlements (easements in OP's situation)--the what question: A deed or grant is only evidence of title--what is the property or easement. If OP's deed says he bought Lot 1, he probably owns Lot 1. If the neighbor has an easement grant, he probably has an easement. However, only a judge has the authority to definitively answer the what question, and he will lean on well-prepared attorneys.

A good surveyor is an expert in both issues. He knows how law applies to interpreting what he is supposed to survey, and he is an expert at gathering evidence of where a property or entitlement is situated. Fortunately, most lay people defer to his opinions, which keeps things civil. And he's still cheaper than an attorney.

I caution most folks against trying to sort this out on their own, at least in case of potential conflict. Researching deeds, easements, survey documents, etc. is one thing, but mathematical and legal principles must be applied when interpreting them. And in the end, without a surveyor, the where question will never be answered.

Thanks for reading my morning treatise. I hope it is helpful.

 

[Idaboy]

Agree with other comments
1) go to local township/County and see what they have on file
2) title company
3) find out when last surveyed, if nothing recent (on yours AND his, get surveyed)
4) if survey and local County/township suggests you are correct then approach him, before going to attorney but you will likely need to play hardball if you want this/fence moved
5) do you really want/need this, or is it more the fact of the matter/buyer remorse that this issue was not settled at time of sale? and decide how much this is worth to you

 

[stanginthe11s]

while nodakian is 100% correct I will enter this quick story. when I bought my house, I had it surveyed. there was a junk boat and some other misc. crap on the neighbor's property, it didn't concern me because I could not see it. a year later I started getting fines for the junk from the town. I went down to the town and explained it was not mine and we pulled the survey which showed that in fact that property and junk was mine. The town had the original survey, the idiots that I paid never submitted the new survey and clearly were wrong on top of it. while it was nice to know I had more land than I thought, it sucked to waste money and be stuck with garbage.

it takes a day to find the documents you need, do the work first so you can have a plan. most people, myself included, find this out the hard way.

 

[Bluumoon]

5 ac

This is a little over a hundred acres

 

[Bluumoon]

This is a little over a hundred acres

I can't believe anyone would buy land without a survey and title/deed history review. The title/deed will list any easements or such and the survey will tell you what you own.

Title Deed was done, easement for area of concern is not listed

 

[Bluumoon]

Two separate issues are in play here: location and title/entitlements, or "where" and "what". It took me years to sort this out in my head, so I offer this summary I hope is helpful.

There are two types of surveys: original and retracement. An original is where a surveyor creates new boundaries, such as in a new subdivision. A retracement is where a surveyor tries to find the lines created by a prior surveyor. The OP's situation requires a retracement.

In a retracement, a surveyor's job is to provide a well-reasoned opinion regarding location--where a property or easement was actually placed. His opinion should be based on evidence such as fence and road locations, historical records of prior surveys, measurements, and testimony of local owners. Some information is useful, some not. In most cases, a surveyor's opinion is good (and cost effective) enough that adjoining owners will go with it. However, if they head to court, the surveyor must defend his opinion to a judge. A judge will lean heavily on the surveyor's opinion of the where question. If things go this far, each side will have their dueling surveyors, and the judge is more likely to rule on the location question in favor of the surveyor whom he believes is better prepared. This is where the cheap, measurement-only surveyor often takes a beating.

Regarding title (ownership) and entitlements (easements in OP's situation)--the what question: A deed or grant is only evidence of title--what is the property or easement. If OP's deed says he bought Lot 1, he probably owns Lot 1. If the neighbor has an easement grant, he probably has an easement. However, only a judge has the authority to definitively answer the what question, and he will lean on well-prepared attorneys.

A good surveyor is an expert in both issues. He knows how law applies to interpreting what he is supposed to survey, and he is an expert at gathering evidence of where a property or entitlement is situated. Fortunately, most lay people defer to his opinions, which keeps things civil. And he's still cheaper than an attorney.

I caution most folks against trying to sort this out on their own, at least in case of potential conflict. Researching deeds, easements, survey documents, etc. is one thing, but mathematical and legal principles must be applied when interpreting them. And in the end, without a surveyor, the where question will never be answered.

Thanks for reading my morning treatise. I hope it is helpful.

Very , thanks

 

[stanginthe11s]

5) do you really want/need this, or is it more the fact of the matter/buyer remorse that this issue was not settled at time of sale? and decide how much this is worth to you

100% this. I have more than one easement story, of which I will not get into lol. I'll just say that both ended as a loss for me in every way despite the facts, deeds, surveys etc.
one was against the second or third largest power company in the world so we know who ran out of money first lol. the second was against a family who had been in that area for generations and the courts knew them. know who you're dealing with and be sure you want it. just because something should be easy doesn't mean it will be.

 

[Rich M]

Title Deed was done, easement for area of concern is not listed

That's a plus!

 

[Maki35]

I would also get a survey.

As you indicated... The neighbor said/feels the fence is the property line. And you think he doesn't have an easement. So, he's probably not going to give it up easily. Get a survey to solve the dispute.