Patched roundball range day

[FrontierGander]

Wows that's a very early cva hawken with the walnut stock!

I restored one myself and still enjoy it

 

[longrangelead]

If you are going to stick with an aperture sight, you definitely need to get that sight back a ways.

What do you prefer for eye to sight distance?

I've found it depends on aperture size.
If the rear aperture is too close or too large, I'm looking at the whole front sight through the hole.

too small or far away, not enough of an aiming point or clarity.

I agree, closer to the eye is better to a point.
I either adjust position or aperture size so the front hood is just slightly a ring inside the rear aperture. Stacking ring in ring for precision is the idea.

I need a taller front sight on this rifle and plan to change the rear to a MVA flip up aperture.

 

[longrangelead]

Wows that's a very early cva hawken with the walnut stock!

I restored one myself and still enjoy it

I browned the barrel and touched up some details when I got it as it was poorly fitted and the barrel still raw.

It's fun to shoot and hunt with as is though.

 

[BAKPAKR]

What do you prefer for eye to sight distance?

I've found it depends on aperture size.
If the rear aperture is too close or too large, I'm looking at the whole front sight through the hole.

too small or far away, not enough of an aiming point or clarity.

I agree, closer to the eye is better to a point.
I either adjust position or aperture size so the front hood is just slightly a ring inside the rear aperture. Stacking ring in ring for precision is the idea.

I need a taller front sight on this rifle and plan to change the rear to a MVA flip up aperture.

I like it closer to the eye and then just use a smaller aperature. The old T/Cs side hammers I have seen with an aperture sight had the sight mounted on the tang.

Here are a couple of photos from the internet:

 

[Formidilosus]

I have fought this before. Very similar experience with accuracy once a persistent crud ring has formed. Not sure what rifle/barrel you are shooting but the more stubborn cases of this I have had have been in percussion t/c rifles. First step is always thorough cleaning then start evaluating/changing variables to try to eliminate the ring formation.

I gave it a good cleaning last night. We shall see if that helps.

Was the ring there to some degree when you started shooting and then got progressively worse or did it appear suddenly?

It was there on my first loading. Swabbing with spit patches made it feel like it went away for the one shot. The second shot it would be back.

Based on previous posts, looks like you are shooting 70gr 3f swiss, .015 prelubed traditions patches and .490 swagged hornady balls correct?

Yes sir.

Any history on cleaning methods/schedule used on this rifle?

@longrangelead posted the history- it’s his rifle.

 

[Formidilosus]

If you are going to stick with an aperture sight, you definitely need to get that sight back a ways.

You know, it actually works quite well where it is. It perfectly fits the front globe.

 

[Formidilosus]

Haha. I just thought about it- @longrangelead got me to clean a barrel.

 

[FrontierGander]

If you take your time and strip that finish off. You'll discover some real pretty walnut under there.

No stain, just many many coats of Birchwood Casey genuine oil. Slow rust browned barrel. Bedded stock.

 

[BAKPAKR]

What do you prefer for eye to sight distance?

I've found it depends on aperture size.
If the rear aperture is too close or too large, I'm looking at the whole front sight through the hole.

too small or far away, not enough of an aiming point or clarity.

I agree, closer to the eye is better to a point.
I either adjust position or aperture size so the front hood is just slightly a ring inside the rear aperture. Stacking ring in ring for precision is the idea.

I need a taller front sight on this rifle and plan to change the rear to a MVA flip up aperture.

Are you thinking about an MVA sight like on Matthew Quigley’s Sharps or the simpler Marbles type?

I have a Marbles sight on my 22.

 

[longrangelead]

If you take your time and strip that finish off. You'll discover some real pretty walnut under there.

No stain, just many many coats of Birchwood Casey genuine oil. Slow rust browned barrel. Bedded stock.
View attachment 989089
View attachment 989093
View attachment 989096

nice.
I've considered making a REALLY nice stock for it just because...but then I start thinking about a Gibbs instead...

 

[Formidilosus]

nice.
I've considered making a REALLY nice stock for it just because...but then I start thinking about a Gibbs instead...

This things fun. I’m sure a conical would shoot better, but the PRB’s shoot pretty decent when the bore is swabbed. Hopefully the cleaning helped.

 

[longrangelead]

Are you thinking about an MVA sight like on Matthew Quigley’s Sharps or the simpler Marbles type?

I forget what they call it, but this one. it's a universal type for reciever/barrel flat mounting.
works very well as a backup under a scope too.
comes with three aperture sizes.

 

[Natty]

I remember him saying “there are so many ways to do this shit I just have to find my way and you need to do the same”. That has stuck with me, **** I miss that old man.

Ain't that the truth. Applies to a lot of things in life. Definitely applies to muzzleloading.

 

[Natty]

my buddy inherited it, he and i went out and he killed a deer with it.
unintentionally, it sat loaded in his safe for 15 years.

It was there on my first loading. Swabbing with spit patches made it feel like it went away for the one shot. The second shot it would be be back.

How does the bore look? Is it possible there is a rough spot that could be contributing to the ring forming? Might be worth scrubbing the heck out of it with a steel wool patch and some oil to knock down any corrosion spots that may be in the bore if you haven't already.

I also wonder if you could be getting some blow by around the patch down at the bottom until the ball obturates and it seals up. I'd try to get your hands on some .018 and/or .020 material/patches and see how they do.

 

[longrangelead]

I haven't bore scoped it. I might have to lap it when I get it back.

Form just cleaned it so we'll see when he posts post clean results.

I hope this doesn't send him on a barrel cleaning kick!

 

[87TT]

I got a late season elk tag. going to use my .50 Flintlock SMR.

Update, I guess maybe next year. My access to hunt became unavailable when my stepson changed jobs literally a week before the season. No time to scout or find a place to camp or stay. Unit was 6 hours away. I traded the tag for a late season cow tag for a closer unit but struck out.
On a plus side, my oldest best friend gave me all his black powder stuff. Three revolvers, three rifles, over 30 lbs of real black powder as well as some Pyrodex and othe supplies and paraphernalia.

 

[87TT]

Haha- no. I have been able to do 20+ shots before without swabbing.

Spit patch swabbing between shots yesterday-
View attachment 985719

Get some 50/50 Ballistol and water for lube and swabbing. Run along time without swabbing between shots at the range. Hunting, I use mink oil lube or similar, so it doesn’t dry out.

 

[Formidilosus]

I tried to do two 10 shot groups with PRB’s and this CVA. @longrangelead stated that this barrel had been left loaded for about 15 years. Due to the barrel issue, I cleaned it well and could feel a “ring” or really rough spot right where the bullet would sit.


First 10 shots would be without swabbing between shots. First couple went ok, the second load was only a bit more difficult to seat. But, at #3 it became very difficult to seat and only got worse. By shot 5 or 6 I had to use the tailgate to seat the ramrod all the way. The shots also got worse. Shots 7 and 8 didn’t hit the IPSC backer.

These were pre-lubed patches .015” thick and .490” balls. 65gr FFG Swiss.



Looking at the target when I went to pull it, the two balls hit the head. This continues the trend of it shooting way high when it gets Fowled.



I stopped at 8 as they were off the paper. Swabbed with spit patches and started the second group of 10 that were going to be swabbed between every shot. These were spit patches with .490” balls- 65gr FFG Swiss. Only made it to shot number 2, as the end of the ram rod came off-





Went home, put a bunch of super glue on the end of the ram rod (glueing myself to everything in the process) and shoved it back down. Got it out and continued today-



What’s interesting is when the swab patch was very tight at the breach, that’s when the shots were off. The times I swabbed and it felt much smoother, that’s when the shots were in the black (the first two shots after the heavy swabbing were both in the black). The nasty spot in the barrel was cutting the swab patches.




Then I tried the same .015” spit patch with a .495” ball, same 65gr FFG. While they were much harder to start, the tighter ball/patch combo did seem to help keep the fowling not so aggressive in the patches.

The group was significantly better, but again when the swabbing was rough and tight- the next shot was generally one of the lower ones.









I’ll keep playing with it until the Flintlock comes in, but the barrel needs some attention.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Have you tried shooting it on a moist day yet? High humidity, foggy, snowing hard, or better yet rainy?

 

[insanelupus]

Form,

I'm far from an expert, but was trained under the tuteludge of one who was. He built the .54 that I took this buck with several years ago at 75 yards. First time that rifle had been hunted in almost 30 years and my mentor died within a month of this photo being taken. Best present I could have given him. I've learned a little from others mistakes since then.

One word of caution, if you have to hammer that ram rod home with the tailgate, probably best to clean. Little good will come of doing so and often some form of damage can result. Sometimes, we have to accept and conform to the limitations of the tool we are using, or find a tool that better conforms to our standards.

Those pre lubed patches are convenient, true. As you have discovered, the tighter the patch/ball, typically the better the group. But powder fouling is a thing. Good Swiss powder (if it can be found, tough at the moment) is a gift and second to none. Running your patch material (100% cotton) through a hot wash cycle and drying is supposed to be beneficial, which means cutting (pre cut or at the muzzle) and lubing them . And experimenting with lube (hey, don't be weird here) is a good idea. Mink oil is often touted and that's been my go to for the rifle pictured. My mentor used a home brew of sheep tallow and beeswax, perhaps with a little linseed oil (memories fade). I asked once about bear grease and his experience indicated it is too thin. There is a balance in patch lube regarding thickness and viscocity I'm still learning.

I've purchased a .58 I need to repair a little and then get online next year. The rifles my mentor built are relegated to terrain I can navigate without falling these days, but the elk don't usually live there! Thus the purchased .58. I'll be playing with lube, ball size, and powder charges, provided I can find more 2F Swiss.

One thing friends have found helpful and I believe it was mentioned, a fiber wad over your powder charge before the PRB is seated. Research I've done indicates going up a caliber is helpful too (I'll be using .62 wads). Lowers extreme spread and has helped accuracy with several I know using conicals, but does the same for PRB.

My experience has all been with slow twist barrels for PRB and the .58 I have is basically a sporterized Remington 1863 Contract rifle that was never actually produced. An Antolio Zoli creation of the 70s. Complete with shallow rifling, 3 groove short barrel, and I've found multiple twists listed from moderate that should be PRB fine to slow and no good for conicals, which I doubt.

Rarely with a muzzlleloader will there be a generic secret sauce. More than modern rifles, each is a rule into its own and requires experimentation.

My mentor told me there have been and are many muzzleloaders capable of very good accuracy. He built many of them over his lifetime. But not every shooter is or has the patience to find it he told me. But the myth that PRB is not capable of small groups at 100 yards is just that, a myth. Not all muzzleloaders are capable of it, but he always reckoned there were fewer shooters capable of finding the necessary combo than there were muzzleloaders.