Patched roundball range day

[Natty]

FNG here. Have lurked for a while but haven't felt inclined to post until now as I feel I may be able to add some value to this thread.

Has anyone shot legit groups at 100 yards or so with PRB? I don’t mean a couple shots, or a 3 shot group here or there- I mean multiple 10+ round groups?
View attachment 985602
I’ve got a Kibler coming, and I am going to go all in on it and curious what people have done or seen.


It didn’t arrive in time for this season, but @longrangelead let me borrow his “Hawken”.
Just 5 shots to check zero yesterday as I was in a hurry, but seems to shoot ok.

I've competed in a lot of round ball competitions and live in close proximity to Friendship, IN where the national matches are held every year. The large (10+ shot) group size is not a metric that I know of anyone tracking. I am currently rebarreling my rifle, but when that is done, I will shoot some larger size groups from a rest while testing loads and report back.

You will find in the competitive muzzleloading rifle world the vast majority of everything revolves around 5 shot matches with a select few matches being 10 shots. If people are interested, I can provide some standard courses of fire, target sizes, distances, classification thresholds and data from historical matches that may be helpful in establishing a base line of what is considered competitive at the nationals. One caveat, I am most familiar/compete in offhand competitions. The data will not strictly be rifle capability but what a skilled shooter can be expected to do standing unsupported with a traditional hunting rifle.

Haha- no. I have been able to do 20+ shots before without swabbing.

Spit patch swabbing between shots yesterday-
View attachment 985719

One of the biggest sacred cows in roundball shooting (and there are a lot) is having to swab between shots. I have had 60+ round sessions shooting in matches without swabbing and no degradation in accuracy (or at least one measurable enough to have an influence on the outcome of the match).

From my experience, I swab only when I can feel a noticeable difference running the ball down the barrel. Swabbing is more important an smaller bore rifles <= 36 cal. or if using extremely large powder charges. Humidity also plays a role in how long you can push it before having to swab/clean.

 

[mtnbound]

Has anyone shot legit groups at 100 yards or so with PRB? I don’t mean a couple shots, or a 3 shot group here or there- I mean multiple 10+ round groups?

I’ve got a Kibler coming, and I am going to go all in on it and curious what people have done or seen.


It didn’t arrive in time for this season, but @longrangelead let me borrow his “Hawken”.
Just 5 shots to check zero yesterday as I was in a hurry, but seems to shoot ok.
View attachment 985602

My dad was big into MZ and would shoot at some of those Mountain Man events. I saw him shoot some very consistent groups with his .50 round ball flintlock so it’s very doable. Terminal performance from the round ball wasn’t that great but animals still died.
Looking forward to hearing about your results. When it comes to hunting, MZ is my favorite season.

 

[Formidilosus]

I've competed in a lot of round ball competitions and live in close proximity to Friendship, IN where the national matches are held every year. The large (10+ shot) group size is not a metric that I know of anyone tracking. I am currently rebarreling my rifle, but when that is done, I will shoot some larger size groups from a rest while testing loads and report back.

That would be appreciated.

If people are interested, I can provide some standard courses of fire, target sizes, distances, classification thresholds and data from historical matches that may be helpful in establishing a base line of what is considered competitive at the nationals. One caveat, I am most familiar/compete in offhand competitions. The data will not strictly be rifle capability but what a skilled shooter can be expected to do standing unsupported with a traditional hunting rifle.

Would like to see it, even if it is not specifically what I am looking for.

One of the biggest sacred cows in roundball shooting (and there are a lot) is having to swab between shots. I have had 60+ round sessions shooting in matches without swabbing and no degradation in accuracy (or at least one measurable enough to have an influence on the outcome of the match).

From my experience, I swab only when I can feel a noticeable difference running the ball down the barrel. Swabbing is more important an smaller bore rifles <= 36 cal. or if using extremely large powder charges. Humidity also plays a role in how long you can push it before having to swab/clean.

Oh yes. I only have a relatively small number of shots with PRB’s, but I’ve had no issue generally going 20+ shots without swabbing. This rifle I had to beat the ball home on the second shot and thought I might have to pull it. Fortunately it just seems like it might have needed cleaning.

 

[Formidilosus]

My dad was big into MZ and would shoot at some of those Mountain Man events. I saw him shoot some very consistent groups with his .50 round ball flintlock so it’s very doable. Terminal performance from the round ball wasn’t that great but animals still died.
Looking forward to hearing about your results. When it comes to hunting, MZ is my favorite season.

I really am enjoying actual muzzleloaders and not crappy modern rifles that you load from the front.

A bit more shooting today, and hitting a 5 inch target at 100 yards is not a real problem.

 

[Natty]

When you talk about large powder charges what do you consider large in a .50?

It would be larger than most should be shooting in traditional style hunting guns/production round ball guns to create fouling issues after one shot. I'm more so referring to the types of charges used in custom heavy bench guns.

There are lots of variables that will play into how frequently you need to clean. All black powder is not created equally. Swiss is the gold standard and burns cleaner than goex and both burn significantly cleaner than schutzen. Ball size and hardness, patch material and thickness as well as rifling geometry all play a role in fouling and the ability to get another ball down the barrel. Fouling will hinder your ability to load and cause ignition issues with certain breech designs (t/c patent breech) before it degrades accuracy to the point it will effect someone in the context of big game hunting.

Generally, I would consider above 90gr in a .50 to be getting into "heavy"/land of diminishing returns territory but even then you should be able to fire a 5+ shot string without cleaning with proper components. I have limited personal experience with .50's but it is a common caliber for light benchrest competition. Most of those guys are shooting in the 80-90gr range for accuracy at 100yds and their rifles have a 14lb weight limit. In that range and higher with a .50, patch integrity starts to become a more critical, hence those shooters all use teflon.

Also worth noting, black powder is corrosive and shooter/hunters should clean to some degree after shooting if the gun is going to sit for more than a day or two. I am strictly referring to cleaning during a shooting session or while hunting.

 

[Bluumoon]

I really am enjoying actual muzzleloaders and not crappy modern rifles that you load from the front.

A bit more shooting today, and hitting a 5 inch target at 100 yards is not a real problem.

Looks like the Kiblers need some stock innovation. How long until there’s a Rokstok for traditional muzzleloaders

There’s a cap and ball muzzleloader in my safe from a kit my grandfather finished in the 70’s. I’ve fired it exactly 1 time, hunting w him, that was a big swing and miss on a doe at less than 100 yards.

Who knows maybe I’ll eventually go down that worm hole.

 

[Natty]

That would be appreciated.






Would like to see it, even if it is not specifically what I am looking for.






Oh yes. I only have a relatively small number of shots with PRB’s, but I’ve had no issue generally going 20+ shots without swabbing. This rifle I had to beat the ball home on the second shot and thought I might have to pull it. Fortunately it just seems like it might have needed cleaning.

I will try to gather some data from light benchrest matches as well. Most of those shooters are using .50's in the 12-14 lb range may be a little more relevant to what you are looking for. (Removes shooter error to some degree and shooters are using stout enough loads to hunt with and shoot to 200yd while being manageable in a "light" rifle).

I will give offhand match metrics first since those are what I know well.

The course of fire for the offhand championship aggregates consist of four targets. Two of the targets are "little bulls" one fired at 25yd and the other at 50yd. The other two targets are "big bulls" one fired at 50yd and the other at 100yd. All four targets/matches are 5 shots a piece.

Little bull dimensions (ring size in diameter):
x-ring = 0.39"
10 ring= 0.89"
9 ring = 1.89"
8 ring = 2.89"
7 ring = 3.89"
6 ring = 4.89"
5 ring = 5.89"


Big bull dimensions (ring size in diameter):
x-ring = 1"
10 ring= 2"
9 ring = 4"
8 ring =6"
7 ring = 8"
6 ring = 10"
5 ring = 12"

A perfect score on a championship aggregate would be 200-20x. New shooters shoot a classification aggregate with the same course of fire and are classified as shown below. Once a shooter shoots 3 scores in a classification range at any time in their career, they are moved to that class. Shooters are only moved to higher classes, they do not move down if they shoot lower scores.

Master – 88% to 100%, 176 points and above;
Expert – 83% to 87%, 166–175 points
Sharpshooter – 75% to 82%, 150–165 points
Marksman – below 75%, 149 points and below.

Additionally, shooters are recognized as "Distiguished Masters" when they have shot 10 180+ aggregate scores in their career. This is not an additional class but an award presented to shooters.

The 180 threshold is what is generally considered a "good score" by those competitive in the master class. First, second and third are awarded and first is typically in the upper 170's to low 190's depending on the championship as different ones have different restrictions on ignition types, sighting systems, stock designs and the ability to wear heavy canvas shooting jackets.

Breaking down the individual targets, a competitive master class shooter is consistently shooting scores of 48-50 on the small bull at 25yd and the big bull at 50yd. The small bull at 50yd and the big bull at 100yd are where the championships are won or lost. For those winning consistently in master class, their averages are usually in the 43-46 point range on those matches. Anything above that would be considered stellar and below that would be disappointing. It is worth noting, most of those if not all of those shooters have shot out barrels and worn out locks on roundball guns. Realistically, a novice muzzleloading shooter starting with scores in the upper sharpshooter to low expert class is very respectable and is typically where someone lands when they come over with heavy experience in modern offhand rifle shooting at a competitive level.

 

[2Stamp]

My dad was big into MZ and would shoot at some of those Mountain Man events. I saw him shoot some very consistent groups with his .50 round ball flintlock so it’s very doable. Terminal performance from the round ball wasn’t that great but animals still died.
Looking forward to hearing about your results. When it comes to hunting, MZ is my favorite season.

Same here; dad shot with a ML club/ attended Rondies. Got me into them: told me if I wanted to shot a ML I needed to build one. So enter the TC Hawken kit. Still have that one, just with a different stock now. I often hunted the UT muzzy season, one of my favorites.

You guys have got me interested in trying some 10 round groups with a few of my ML rifles this winter. It'll get me out shooting them again.

 

[Formidilosus]

I will try to gather some data from light benchrest matches as well. Most of those shooters are using .50's in the 12-14 lb range may be a little more relevant to what you are looking for. (Removes shooter error to some degree and shooters are using stout enough loads to hunt with and shoot to 200yd while being manageable in a "light" rifle).

I will give offhand match metrics first since those are what I know well.

The course of fire for the offhand championship aggregates consist of four targets. Two of the targets are "little bulls" one fired at 25yd and the other at 50yd. The other two targets are "big bulls" one fired at 50yd and the other at 100yd. All four targets/matches are 5 shots a piece.

Little bull dimensions (ring size in diameter):
x-ring = 0.39"
10 ring= 0.89"
9 ring = 1.89"
8 ring = 2.89"
7 ring = 3.89"
6 ring = 4.89"
5 ring = 5.89"


Big bull dimensions (ring size in diameter):
x-ring = 1"
10 ring= 2"
9 ring = 4"
8 ring =6"
7 ring = 8"
6 ring = 10"
5 ring = 12"

A perfect score on a championship aggregate would be 200-20x. New shooters shoot a classification aggregate with the same course of fire and are classified as shown below. Once a shooter shoots 3 scores in a classification range at any time in their career, they are moved to that class. Shooters are only moved to higher classes, they do not move down if they shoot lower scores.

Master – 88% to 100%, 176 points and above;
Expert – 83% to 87%, 166–175 points
Sharpshooter – 75% to 82%, 150–165 points
Marksman – below 75%, 149 points and below.

Additionally, shooters are recognized as "Distiguished Masters" when they have shot 10 180+ aggregate scores in their career. This is not an additional class but an award presented to shooters.

The 180 threshold is what is generally considered a "good score" by those competitive in the master class. First, second and third are awarded and first is typically in the upper 170's to low 190's depending on the championship as different ones have different restrictions on ignition types, sighting systems, stock designs and the ability to wear heavy canvas shooting jackets.

Breaking down the individual targets, a competitive master class shooter is consistently shooting scores of 48-50 on the small bull at 25yd and the big bull at 50yd. The small bull at 50yd and the big bull at 100yd are where the championships are won or lost. For those winning consistently in master class, their averages are usually in the 43-46 point range on those matches. Anything above that would be considered stellar and below that would be disappointing. It is worth noting, most of those if not all of those shooters have shot out barrels and worn out locks on roundball guns. Realistically, a novice muzzleloading shooter starting with scores in the upper sharpshooter to low expert class is very respectable and is typically where someone lands when they come over with heavy experience in modern offhand rifle shooting at a competitive level.

Thank you for the info.

 

[Formidilosus]

Same here; dad shot with a ML club/ attended Rondies. Got me into them: told me if I wanted to shot a ML I needed to build one. So enter the TC Hawken kit. Still have that one, just with a different stock now. I often hunted the UT muzzy season, one of my favorites.

You guys have got me interested in trying some 10 round groups with a few of my ML rifles this winter. It'll get me out shooting them again.

We need to make this a thing.

 

[2Stamp]

We need to make this a thing.

I'd have to do some digging to come up with my notes on loads. Or, I could work them up again. I'm going to need to order more flints also.

I have to ask, where did you find the Swiss powder? I have a good supply of Goex from over the years.

 

[Natty]

Thank you for the feedback. We use a 45-70 case full of powder as our powder measure for one rifle, and a 80 grains in the other.

This is a good place to be charge wise in a .50 cal hunting gun.

Pennsylvania has a flintlock only season. I really enjoy that season and shooting muzzleloaders.

PA has a strong traditional muzzleloading culture. I selfishly wish more states would have flint/trad seasons. Traditional muzzleloading is a dying sport and I think these seasons do more to spark interest and introduce new people to these rifles than just about anything.

After breaking a wooden ram rod once on top of a mountain a long ways from the truck, I have replaced the ram rods on both flintlocks and our modern inline with a piece of 3/8” brass. It is pretty easy to stick the brass in the lathe and face, drill, and tap one end for cleaning tools etc, and touch the other end with a 1/2” ball end mill for seating the ball.

Only time I use a wooden rod are when shooting period correct matches loading from a pouch and horn or when hunting. A straight grained hickory rod can take a lot, but for high volume shooting and or tight loads a brass or stainless "range rod" with a bore guide are superior. I have known a few people to make shorter versions to take the place of the wooden rod on the gun for hunting similar to what you have described.

After cleaning them at the end of season, I always oil the bore and seal the bore and flash hole with Vaseline. I also WD-40 the lock. Whenever we get them out to start shooting again, I clean the lock off with brake clean and clean the Vaseline out with brake clean.

Those might not be “best practices” but our guns have a quick lock time, go off when fired, and hit what they are aimed at.

It sounds like you have a system that is working well for you and that is what matters. In regards to cleaning, ask 10 different shooters how they clean and you will get 10 different answers. In reality, most all of them work. The ones that will argue with you about it would almost always be better served learning how to shoot rather the formulating their cleaning concoctions.

 

[Natty]

We need to make this a thing.

Agreed. I would be interested in seeing this done at 50yd, then repeated at 100yd to see what conclusions emerge on rifle capability and effects of environmentals/lack there of at 100 with different peoples setups.

 

[Hawkeye29]

I’m down to see what I can do at 100yds. I have a TVM Poor Boy that I want to put through the paces. Was able to kill a blacktail doe with a decent load but I think I could dev out a better one. Will post feedback after range days!

 

[BBob]

I have an older TC Hawken that has an appropriate twist dedicated round ball barrel on it. I haven’t shot it much lately but mby I need to drag it out and shoot it this spring when other things have slowed.

 

[Formidilosus]

I'd have to do some digging to come up with my notes on loads. Or, I could work them up again. I'm going to need to order more flints also.

I’ve got a package and half on the way. When I ordered the stuff, the sales person was like “wtf, what are you doing with this”. Haha.

I have to ask, where did you find the Swiss powder? I have a good supply of Goex from over the years.

I was given a place and asked not to repeat. I’m not even sure they are online, I will ask if it is ok to state.

 

[Formidilosus]

Agreed. I would be interested in seeing this done at 50yd, then repeated at 100yd to see what conclusions emerge on rifle capability and effects of environmentals/lack there of at 100 with different peoples setups.

My plan is plenty of group shooting at 25, 50, 100, 125, 150, 200, 250, and 300- provided I can hit anything at all at each previous range.

 

[Formidilosus]

I’m down to see what I can do at 100yds. I have a TVM Poor Boy that I want to put through the paces. Was able to kill a blacktail doe with a decent load but I think I could dev out a better one. Will post feedback after range days!

That will be great.

I have an older TC Hawken that has an appropriate twist dedicated round ball barrel on it. I haven’t shot it much lately but mby I need to drag it out and shoot it this spring when other things have slowed.

Do it!

 

[Formidilosus]

PA has a strong traditional muzzleloading culture. I selfishly wish more states would have flint/trad seasons. Traditional muzzleloading is a dying sport and I think these seasons do more to spark interest and introduce new people to these rifles than just about anything.

It’s not selfish at all. It goes right back to when these “muzzleloader” or “primitive” season were adopted in most states (and this includes archery). The reason they got a special season set aside is because due to the equipment limitations they wouldn’t have any material effect on game numbers. Instead, now muzzleloader season is just another modern “rifle that sucks” season. They are not a handicap in anyway, and the successful rate is hand in hand with centerfires.

 

[2Stamp]

I’ve got a package and half on the way. When I ordered the stuff, the sales person was like “wtf, what are you doing with this”. Haha.




I was given a place and asked not to repeat. I’m not even sure they are online, I will ask if it is ok to state.

No worries. Black powder is a touchy subject.