Painless load development (mine)

[Jake Leibke]

That is interesting, I didn’t know that small primers could cause ignition issues in CM size cartridges. Are the ignition issues limited to CCI primers, is the powder type and ambient temperature a factor?

In my limited experience with CM sized case I have only had issues with the CCI 450 primers and H4350 in temps below 15°. I had a few hang fires. Was using other powers the same day out of the same gun, brass and primers. I am going to do some more testing this winter with federal primers but have heard most of the issues with the CCI’s.

This was in a 22 cm.


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[wind gypsy]

I have been wanting to reload for many years. I finally decided to start for a few reasons, and decided to read this thread. I'm glad I did as it will save me hundreds on equipment and a lot of time fiddling.

Now I just need to find SR magnum primers and powder I want locally (shipping hazmat to AK is too expensive for me to order things).

Below is just double checking what I think I have figured out, so if there are any holes someone will hopefully point them out.


I'm going to start with 223.
-SR magnum primers are for reliable cold weather ignition.
-Starline brass is good and while Lapua and Norma may be better, they are not twice the cost better.
-Looking for IMR 8208, Varget, H4895, or IMR 4895 (this will be shot in -20, so temp stability is important), there are probably other powders that will work, I need to keep researching.
-Leverevolution might work, not much information on it in 223 though.

Only negative I’ve heard about starline in 223 is it’s about the lowest case capacity 223 option. I don’t worry about that much in lots of cartridges but 223 is small enough that it’s nice to have extra capacity for velocity but also because loads can get really compressed when seated to mag length with heavy bullets and varget in particular.

If starting from scratch id buy a 200 round case or two of ADI ammo from global ordinance and use that brass once you’ve shot it.

H4895 and xbr are nice in 223 because you’re less likely to have compressed loads but my tikka seems to prefer varget for some reason..

 

[Formidilosus]

I have been wanting to reload for many years. I finally decided to start for a few reasons, and decided to read this thread. I'm glad I did as it will save me hundreds on equipment and a lot of time fiddling.

Now I just need to find SR magnum primers and powder I want locally (shipping hazmat to AK is too expensive for me to order things).

Below is just double checking what I think I have figured out, so if there are any holes someone will hopefully point them out.


I'm going to start with 223.
-SR magnum primers are for reliable cold weather ignition.
-Starline brass is good and while Lapua and Norma may be better, they are not twice the cost better.
-Looking for IMR 8208, Varget, H4895, or IMR 4895 (this will be shot in -20, so temp stability is important), there are probably other powders that will work, I need to keep researching.
-Leverevolution might work, not much information on it in 223 though.

Yo do not need magnum SR primers for 223. 8208 is the golden powder for heavy bullets in it. Brass doesn’t make two flips- LC, Winchester, Stareline, Hornady, whatever.

 

[ljalberta]

I only reload for .223, 6.5 CM and .308 and moved the latter two to SRP brass. Both loads using Varget. It’s common to have a few -20 to -30*C days here when hunting. I use CCI 450 primers, so it will be interesting to see if I encounter issues.

My primary issue is it’s a heck of a difficult time finding LRP at a price that doesn't crush the budget.

 

[wind gypsy]

That is interesting, I didn’t know that small primers could cause ignition issues in CM size cartridges. Are the ignition issues limited to CCI primers, is the powder type and ambient temperature a factor?

This is my understanding from reading, not from detailed experiments - There are a lot of factors at play. Temperature, which powder is being used, how much powder is being used, which primer is being used, and possibly how big the flash hole in the brass is. I could also see things like temperature impacting how hard a firing pin falls and how far it projects (may be impacted by temperature) and how tightly the case fits in the chamber.

Powders vary in how much spark they require. To generalize, ball powder needs more than stick powder and double based might need more than single based. A larger charge needs more spark than a smaller charge. In the cold more spark is needed than when it's warm. A larger flash hole likely helps on borderline situations.

Used to be the only 308 sized cases i was aware of that came with a SRP is was the Lapua "palma" brass. I doubt many palma shooters are using slow burning ball powder and I'd guess not many palma competitions are held @ zero degree temps.

Edit: Here's a 10 year old post from someone at Lapua in relation to the origin of SRP in 308 cases

The 308 Palma brass was something we produce at the request of the US Palma team. In years past, Remington used to sell what they called UBR brass (Universal Bench Rest, as I recall). This was a special, thin walled case in 308 Win configuration, that had an exceptionally heavy anneal and a small primer pocket. At the time, Remington was selling guns chambered for the 22, 6mm and 7mm BenchRest cartridges. While I think they did sell 7mm BR ammo, they didn't produce either the 22 or 6mm BR cases or ammo. The UBR brass was intended to be formed into any of these cases. As the end product after reforming had a significantly smaller combustion chamber, it was better suited to a Small Rifle Primer, and the cases were designed and produced to that end. Somewhere during the process, Long Range Prone shooters tried the cases, originally due to their thin-walled design and somewhat greater case capacity. What they found was that the Small Rifle Primers didn't seem to be nearly as finicky about lot selection as Large Rifle Primers used in this same application usually are. Many shooters don't appreciate the need for selected primers in 1,000 yard loads, but it makes a significant difference in on-target performance. While some lots give horrific vertical spread, another lot of the same type and brand of primer may reduce that spread to sub X-ring elevation. This is quite common for the Large Rifle primers, but not nearly so pronounced in the case of the Small Rifle primers. Anyway, for that reason alone, many Long Range shooters began using the UBR cases "as is", in the original 308 configuration. Remington has long since adopted the 6mm and 7mm BRs, and cases and ammunition are now readily available for both. The 22 BR still exists in semi-wildcat form, but most shooters of that cartridge now make their cases from the 6mm BR. Lot easier that way anyway. As a result, Remington dropped the UBR cases many years back.

Wanting the same ease in dealing with primer lot selection as they'd had with the UBR cases, members of the US Palma team approached us about producing a case along these lines, which we did. It's dubbed (naturally) the 308 Win Palma case to differentiate it from our standard production 308 Win case using the normal large rifle primer pocket. It's been well received, and seems to offer the same sort of advantages as the old UBR brass. There is, however, no such thing as a free lunch. The case capacity of a full grown adult 308 case is about the maximum limit of what a Small Rifle primer will reliably ignite. Even then, it requires good conditions; fairly warm weather, a easy-to-ignite powder in the medium burning range, etc.. Moving to a very slow burning powder, a ball powder or firing in extremely cold weather can (and will) result in hangfires, misfires or both due to the primers capacity to ignite the charge having been exceeded. The mildest, softest primer that will reliably ignite a charge is almost always the most accurate. Large or small, big cases or smaller ones, that rule holds true. But in many situations, such as the hunting fields or certainly military operations, the need for absolute reliability trumps accuracy. So, while the 308 Palma case is used very successfully in competition, we do not recommend its use in any sort of hunting applications, cold weather or with difficult to ignite propellants, such as many of the ball powders. Hope that answers your question, but if there's anything more we can do for you, don't hesitate to let us know. Always glad to help.

 

[MichaelC]

I have been wanting to reload for many years. I finally decided to start for a few reasons, and decided to read this thread. I'm glad I did as it will save me hundreds on equipment and a lot of time fiddling.

Now I just need to find SR magnum primers and powder I want locally (shipping hazmat to AK is too expensive for me to order things).

Below is just double checking what I think I have figured out, so if there are any holes someone will hopefully point them out.


I'm going to start with 223.
-SR magnum primers are for reliable cold weather ignition.
-Starline brass is good and while Lapua and Norma may be better, they are not twice the cost better.
-Looking for IMR 8208, Varget, H4895, or IMR 4895 (this will be shot in -20, so temp stability is important), there are probably other powders that will work, I need to keep researching.
-Leverevolution might work, not much information on it in 223 though.

Yo do not need magnum SR primers for 223. 8208 is the golden powder for heavy bullets in it. Brass doesn’t make two flips- LC, Winchester, Stareline, Hornady, whatever.

Agree, no need for magnum in 223. But they do work too so basically any primer in 223 is good to go. Don’t overlook foreign primers if your brass has a few loads on it as the European primers are a tiny bit bigger.
I have used Starline and while I prefer Lapua, I wouldn’t waste my money on it unless I was shooting past 800 yards. I don’t think brass is that important other than all being the same in 223 (ie try not to load mixed brass if you can).
I shoot about 3k rounds a year of 223 between 200 and 1000 yards for competitions. Most of it is at 1000 yards. 80ELD, and 90Berger but with the long freebore to accommodate, so a little different than a hunting set up. However, I have found any powder that works in a 308 also works in a 223. Keep that in mind when shopping for powders. While 8208 is a top, it does get weird with too much in a case. H4895 is my favorite but those two powders are not being made for some reason right now. Varget is awesome, and is actually available right now. Also, check out CFE 223 (acts like varget), AR Comp, N135, N140, 4064, RL15, MR2000, and anything else in that burn rate (look up a burn rate chart).

 

[MichaelC]

This is my understanding from reading, not from detailed experiments - There are a lot of factors at play. Temperature, which powder is being used, how much powder is being used, which primer is being used, and possibly how big the flash hole in the brass is. I could also see things like temperature impacting how hard a firing pin falls and how far it projects (may be impacted by temperature) and how tightly the case fits in the chamber.

Powders vary in how much spark they require. The generalize, ball powder needs more than stick powder and double based might need more than single based. A larger charge needs more spark than a smaller charge. In the cold more spark is needed than when it's warm. A larger flash hole likely helps on borderline situations.

Used to be the only 308 sized cases i was aware with that came with a SRP is was the Lapua "palma" brass. I doubt many palma shooters are using slow burning ball powder and I'd guess not many palma competitions are held @ zero degree temps.

Edit: Here's a 10 year old post from someone at Lapua in relation to the origin of SRP in 308 cases

As a Palma shooter, I like it when people talk about palma shooting; no one is using ball powder, although you could, and having shot a palma match (800, 900, 1000 sling and irons) in zero degrees last winter, I never want to do it again.

 

[willfrye027]

Here is some more simple load development for you guys, thanks form. Been doing this on several rifles with great results and less time/components wasted.

Tikka factory 22-250 22” reamed to 22creedmoor. Peterson SRP and CCI #41. N555 powder. 88 eldm. Had some experience in another 22cm so I knew where to start. Loaded up 40gr, 41gr, 42gr (two shots at each) and measured velocity because I wanted some velocity gains over my h4350 load.

Some ejector marks without bolt lift at 42gr and 3160ish fps.

Loaded some at 41.5gr. Velocity of 3120ish. Shot some of them at some “other targets” on the range and then here are the next 8 shot for a group. Barrel was pretty hot, tried to let it cool a little between strings to not destroy my throat. But certainly not a cold barrel. No bolt lift a few light ejector marks, perfect in my book

 

[PlumberED]

This is my understanding from reading, not from detailed experiments - There are a lot of factors at play. Temperature, which powder is being used, how much powder is being used, which primer is being used, and possibly how big the flash hole in the brass is. I could also see things like temperature impacting how hard a firing pin falls and how far it projects (may be impacted by temperature) and how tightly the case fits in the chamber.

Powders vary in how much spark they require. To generalize, ball powder needs more than stick powder and double based might need more than single based. A larger charge needs more spark than a smaller charge. In the cold more spark is needed than when it's warm. A larger flash hole likely helps on borderline situations.

Used to be the only 308 sized cases i was aware of that came with a SRP is was the Lapua "palma" brass. I doubt many palma shooters are using slow burning ball powder and I'd guess not many palma competitions are held @ zero degree temps.

Edit: Here's a 10 year old post from someone at Lapua in relation to the origin of SRP in 308 cases

Thank you for taking the time for the explanation. I appreciate it.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus ,
I may have missed it, but have you posted a detailed equipment list that you use for your reloading process?

Grin.


The press-



The priming tool I use-



The dies I almost always use-



The powder dispenser-



Loading block-



Brass cleaning station-

 

[Brontosaurus]

Grin.


The press-
View attachment 614744


The priming tool I use-
View attachment 614745


The dies I almost always use-
View attachment 614746


The powder dispenser-
View attachment 614747


Loading block-
View attachment 614757


Brass cleaning station-
View attachment 614756

Them c clamps do the trick!

 

[Formidilosus]

In another thread seating depth and distance from lands was brought up with a couple people adamant that it makes a large difference in objective groups size, and that the difference is obvious with 3-5 round groups.


There is a full .102” difference in seating depth between these rounds ranging from 2.662 on the short end, to 2.765 on the long end.




Any bets as to whether the group will be larger or noticeably different than ones with all of them at 2.750” which is the load?

 

[Formidilosus]

Them c clamps do the trick!

You must use the most precise equipment, with a pristine environment, measure power charges to the 1/10th of a grain, keep distance to lands within no more than .0005”; weigh, trim, anneal, clean, and neck turn and size only, and perfectly prep each piece of brass, check BTO of each projectile and weight of each to within .1 of a grain, and make sure all your rounds are polished.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Any bets as to whether the group will be larger or noticeably different than ones with all of them at 2.750” which is the load?

I bet it's not outside the variability of the group shot with the load.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Thanks @Formidilosus, precisely how I imagined the setup to be. As nice as those beautiful reloading stations that WKR’s post photos of, it’s this thread that has convinced me to start reloading.

 

[Formidilosus]

Thanks @Formidilosus, precisely how I imagined the setup to be. As nice as those beautiful reloading stations that WKR’s post photos of, it’s this thread that has convinced me to start reloading.

Haha. I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or not, but reloading good ammo isn’t hard or complicated at all.

 

[Firth]

You must use the most precise equipment, with a pristine environment, measure power charges to the 1/10th of a grain, keep distance to lands within no more than .0005”; weigh, trim, anneal, clean, and neck turn and size only, and perfectly prep each piece of brass, check BTO of each projectile and weight of each to within .1 of a grain, and make sure all your rounds are polished.

To be honest, I'm actually kind of surprised you're loading with an electronic scale/dispenser. Figured you'd be using a thrower for sure.

 

[Formidilosus]

To be honest, I'm actually kind of surprised you're loading with an electronic scale/dispenser. Figured you'd be using a thrower for sure.

Nah. Throwers are too finicky to set up. I want simple and quick. The electronic dispenser is easy peasy. Loading ammo without an electronic dispenser makes me want to put a small child’s teddy bear in a blender.

 

[Carl Ross]

You talking about one of these is too finicky? If you like simple, quick, and should last about forever...

Now if you're using big extruded powder, or super focused on your SD numbers, a GOOD electronic (like in the background) has it's place, but for general use I think a Chargemaster takes WAY more patience.

 

[Formidilosus]

View attachment 615159


You talking about one of these is too finicky? If you like simple, quick, and should last about forever...

Now if you're using big extruded powder, or super focused on your SD numbers, a GOOD electronic (like in the background) has it's place, but for general use I think a Chargemaster takes WAY more patience.

I haven’t used that one. How does it do with H1000, H4350, etc? And how quick is it to set a charge weight? For instance I did three different cartridges and powders yesterday but only 20-60 rounds of each.


The electronic is mindless to me. Set the pan on, set the grain, it buzzes, beeps when it’s done, dump powder, rinse and repeat.