Painless load development (mine)

[gelton]

For AR reloads, or basically anything where I am doing hundreds at a time, I much prefer a drop-style powder charger like the one pictured above....quicker by a large margin.

When I bought my electronic one, I threw the drop-style RCBS one I had out and have been kicking myself ever since.

I like the electronic one for precise reloads but it is definitely slower.

 

[Firth]

I just use a cheap Lee thrower and supposedly they are one of the better options for extruded powders, but I've never done a statistical analysis to see how good they actually are. I'm not a competition shooter or subject matter expert on shooting in any way, just a hobbyist shooter and reloader. The Lee has a dial on it and I just throw one to get the density of the powder and then adjust it to where I want to be and throw 10 into one pan and weigh it to see where it averages. Generally, I'm very, very close but may need a slight adjustment and I'm done. I write down the measurement on the dial and it's easy to come back next time. I used to use an old Pact electronic scale/thrower set up, which I'm sure is slower than your RCBS, and I used to take one cartridge through the whole process - resize, prime, charge, seat bullet - at a time in order to wait for the charge to drop. YMMV, but from my own tracking I'm much faster doing all the resizing, all the priming, all the charging, then all the bullets at once.

Shoots like this for what it's worth:

600 yard truing looked like this:

Admittedly, I'm not a sophisticated reloader, but I decided that was good enough for me.

 

[Brontosaurus]

I have the Hornady drop charge and 4350 will go through but you are shearing a kernels a bit. It is fast tho

 

[wind gypsy]

I haven’t used that one. How does it do with H1000, H4350, etc? And how quick is it to set a charge weight? For instance I did three different cartridges and powders yesterday but only 20-60 rounds of each.

Tagging into this - primarily would be using H4350, Varget, H4895, XBR - what kind of variance in charge weights would a guy see?

 

[seand]

Electronic is Mindless but slow.

Dumping direct from the measure can be a Huge time saver. Lee perfect is $30, can buy a bunch and leave setup/ swap them out. Lifting up the loading block and charging 50 cases direct from the measure is surely way way faster.

 

[seand]

Tagging into this - primarily would be using H4350, Varget, H4895, XBR - what kind of variance in charge weights would a guy see?

I don’t use H4350 or varget, but with RL16 and XBR they measure pretty darn well out of a lee perfect. Shooting 20 round groups at 600yd I can’t tell the difference on target between hand trickled and direct throw charges. F class guys probably could, maybe a better shooter could, but I can’t with my tikkas, etc. I think most folks here would be really surprised if they tried/tested thrown charges.

 

[Carl Ross]

I have a little time on my hands this afternoon, so I'm going to write up a mini-review of that measure and how I use it, as I think it's a pretty neat tool in the toolbox of a reloader.

 

[Firth]

I have a little time on my hands this afternoon, so I'm going to write up a mini-review of that measure and how I use it, as I think it's a pretty neat tool in the toolbox of a reloader.

I've heard good things about the Harrell. Another one I've heard good things about is the JDS Quickmeasure. I've just been happy enough with my results so far, that I haven't been able to talk myself into a new powder measure.

 

[dreamingWest]

I probably see +/-0.3 grains with TAC and H4350 with RCBS Quick Charge. I'm on the fence with which I like better. Electronic is definitely mindless and fine when doing small batches. I'm also surprised Form isn't using a cheap Lee dropper!

 

[Carl Ross]

The measure I showed is the Harrell's 90 Culver measure. I got it just under 10 years ago, it has gone up in price from $209.99 to $230 in that time. It's the cheapest measure Harrell's makes.

I measure powder three ways, and honestly, the Harrell's is my least used of the three due to my workflow, but I still can't imagine getting rid of it for reasons I'll elaborate on below.

First, let's look at repeatability. I chose four powders to test:
H1000 - Large stick extruded
Varget - medium stick extruded
8208 XBR - small stick extruded
Leverevolution - ball

Obviously there are plenty of powders in between, but this should show a decent representation of the performance.

For this test I left the micrometer at one setting (54.75), dumped powder in, then threw 30 charges and weighed them on my FX120i (a lab scale that reads down to .02 grains and is well behaved for anyone unfamiliar). I didn't do any trick double tapping of the handle or body that I've read about anyone doing, I didn't discount throws that had some kernel binding, I didn't even throw a few to get it settled initially. Filled it up with powder and went for it. My results were:



I've done test's like this before, and am not surprised by these results. Even with H1000, I'm perfectly happy with this type of performance for:

Anything I do to 600 (I don't compete in the accuracy disciplines at 600).
Anything I do with a 223, my highest volume round (If I was trying to win a PRS match with one, I'd weigh, but I have yet to do that)
Club matches, especially with a powder like 8208 (or 4895 which throws pretty similar).

Three things really separate the Harrell's from say an RCBS thrower for me:
- It has a micrometer adjustment that clicks, is repeatable, and is linear
- It does seem to be more accurate/less particular about how you run it
- It clamps onto a flat edge instead of requiring a stand

For serious competition beyond 600 I weigh them, but with 8208 or 4895 it's pretty hard to tell the difference on target.

The Micrometer (at 54.75 here):



The micrometer is very repeatable, and most extruded powders are ~ 1.75 on the mic (or 7 clicks) per grain. So if I'm trying to throw 40.0 grains, I guess and throw one, lets say I get 38.5 grains. I'd add 10 clicks and throw again. After the third throw I should just be throwing a few to confirm I'm not a click off before I mass produce. And after I do that ONCE, I write down the mic number with my load data and can go back to it immediately, throw one or two to confirm, and I'm mass producing again.

I mentioned I don't use the Harrel's a ton anymore for production (I'll get to that), but what I can't live without it for is load development. I can't shoot that close to my house, and I am pretty impatient with load development and want to have it done in one range trip. I do a little homework, finding a seating depth that's either .020"-.030" off the lands or whatever fits in the mag, then I find charge ranges I think are appropriate and quickly map the Harrell's mic to them, here's one from my notes I did from a 6.5 PRC from a while back:



Then I get to the range, load and shoot (hopefully over the chrono) getting something like this:



Once I get home, I'll throw a handful at wherever I landed and write down the weight for reference as well.


For anyone loading in decent volume that isn't ONLY loading 1000yd level competition ammo, AND is loading single stage I'd definitely recommend considering something similar. The reason I don't use mine for production much is that I load everything on a progressive, and it's either using a powder funnel and the FX-120i w/ Autotrickler V2 as shown here:



I can do 200+ rounds an hour with prepped brass on that setup, pretty relaxed and weighing charges more or less to the kernel. Or...

I set it up with the Hornady thrower with the case activated powder measure as shown here:



It's a bit less accurate and a bit more finicky to get dialed in. It does have a micrometer that works pretty well, and once I get it set it often stays there for 1,000+ rounds. And I only use it for 8208 or finer. It's pretty easy to exceed 300 rounds an hour with prepped brass and being relaxed about it.

I can stick the Harrell's in the powder funnel and use it that way; and I have in the past. However, my Autotrickler is so dialed at this point that for this workflow the Harrell's doesn't really save any time.

 

[wind gypsy]

Awesome write up @Carl Ross

Curious what press you use to load at the range? I could see myself buying one of those throwers and an arbor press now to seat bullets at the range.

 

[Carl Ross]

Awesome write up @Carl Ross

Curious what press you use to load at the range? I could see myself buying one of those throwers and an arbor press now to seat bullets at the range.

I use an RCBS Partner press. Cheap, light, and takes all my dies. I will say now that all my dies are in Hornady bushings, a Hornady press would be slightly more convenient. Should just get one to leave at the range...

 

[Jimbee]

T

Awesome write up @Carl Ross

Curious what press you use to load at the range? I could see myself buying one of those throwers and an arbor press now to seat bullets at the range.

This works pretty good for me

 

[ShootOkHuntWorse]

The measure I showed is the Harrell's 90 Culver measure. I got it just under 10 years ago, it has gone up in price from $209.99 to $230 in that time. It's the cheapest measure Harrell's makes.

I measure powder three ways, and honestly, the Harrell's is my least used of the three due to my workflow, but I still can't imagine getting rid of it for reasons I'll elaborate on below.

First, let's look at repeatability. I chose four powders to test:
H1000 - Large stick extruded
Varget - medium stick extruded
8208 XBR - small stick extruded
Leverevolution - ball

Obviously there are plenty of powders in between, but this should show a decent representation of the performance.

For this test I left the micrometer at one setting (54.75), dumped powder in, then threw 30 charges and weighed them on my FX120i (a lab scale that reads down to .02 grains and is well behaved for anyone unfamiliar). I didn't do any trick double tapping of the handle or body that I've read about anyone doing, I didn't discount throws that had some kernel binding, I didn't even throw a few to get it settled initially. Filled it up with powder and went for it. My results were:

View attachment 615255

I've done test's like this before, and am not surprised by these results. Even with H1000, I'm perfectly happy with this type of performance for:

Anything I do to 600 (I don't compete in the accuracy disciplines at 600).
Anything I do with a 223, my highest volume round (If I was trying to win a PRS match with one, I'd weigh, but I have yet to do that)
Club matches, especially with a powder like 8208 (or 4895 which throws pretty similar).

Three things really separate the Harrell's from say an RCBS thrower for me:
- It has a micrometer adjustment that clicks, is repeatable, and is linear
- It does seem to be more accurate/less particular about how you run it
- It clamps onto a flat edge instead of requiring a stand

For serious competition beyond 600 I weigh them, but with 8208 or 4895 it's pretty hard to tell the difference on target.

The Micrometer (at 54.75 here):

View attachment 615257

The micrometer is very repeatable, and most extruded powders are ~ 1.75 on the mic (or 7 clicks) per grain. So if I'm trying to throw 40.0 grains, I guess and throw one, lets say I get 38.5 grains. I'd add 10 clicks and throw again. After the third throw I should just be throwing a few to confirm I'm not a click off before I mass produce. And after I do that ONCE, I write down the mic number with my load data and can go back to it immediately, throw one or two to confirm, and I'm mass producing again.

I mentioned I don't use the Harrel's a ton anymore for production (I'll get to that), but what I can't live without it for is load development. I can't shoot that close to my house, and I am pretty impatient with load development and want to have it done in one range trip. I do a little homework, finding a seating depth that's either .020"-.030" off the lands or whatever fits in the mag, then I find charge ranges I think are appropriate and quickly map the Harrell's mic to them, here's one from my notes I did from a 6.5 PRC from a while back:

View attachment 615258

Then I get to the range, load and shoot (hopefully over the chrono) getting something like this:

View attachment 615259

Once I get home, I'll throw a handful at wherever I landed and write down the weight for reference as well.


For anyone loading in decent volume that isn't ONLY loading 1000yd level competition ammo, AND is loading single stage I'd definitely recommend considering something similar. The reason I don't use mine for production much is that I load everything on a progressive, and it's either using a powder funnel and the FX-120i w/ Autotrickler V2 as shown here:

View attachment 615262

I can do 200+ rounds an hour with prepped brass on that setup, pretty relaxed and weighing charges more or less to the kernel. Or...

I set it up with the Hornady thrower with the case activated powder measure as shown here:

View attachment 615263

It's a bit less accurate and a bit more finicky to get dialed in. It does have a micrometer that works pretty well, and once I get it set it often stays there for 1,000+ rounds. And I only use it for 8208 or finer. It's pretty easy to exceed 300 rounds an hour with prepped brass and being relaxed about it.

I can stick the Harrell's in the powder funnel and use it that way; and I have in the past. However, my Autotrickler is so dialed at this point that for this workflow the Harrell's doesn't really save any time.

This was great and info thanks!

 

[wind gypsy]

T
This works pretty good for meView attachment 615287

Remembered shortly after asking that I have one of those for sizing muzzleloader bullets!

 

[Firth]

The measure I showed is the Harrell's 90 Culver measure. I got it just under 10 years ago, it has gone up in price from $209.99 to $230 in that time. It's the cheapest measure Harrell's makes.

I measure powder three ways, and honestly, the Harrell's is my least used of the three due to my workflow, but I still can't imagine getting rid of it for reasons I'll elaborate on below.

First, let's look at repeatability. I chose four powders to test:
H1000 - Large stick extruded
Varget - medium stick extruded
8208 XBR - small stick extruded
Leverevolution - ball

Obviously there are plenty of powders in between, but this should show a decent representation of the performance.

For this test I left the micrometer at one setting (54.75), dumped powder in, then threw 30 charges and weighed them on my FX120i (a lab scale that reads down to .02 grains and is well behaved for anyone unfamiliar). I didn't do any trick double tapping of the handle or body that I've read about anyone doing, I didn't discount throws that had some kernel binding, I didn't even throw a few to get it settled initially. Filled it up with powder and went for it. My results were:

View attachment 615255

I've done test's like this before, and am not surprised by these results. Even with H1000, I'm perfectly happy with this type of performance for:

Anything I do to 600 (I don't compete in the accuracy disciplines at 600).
Anything I do with a 223, my highest volume round (If I was trying to win a PRS match with one, I'd weigh, but I have yet to do that)
Club matches, especially with a powder like 8208 (or 4895 which throws pretty similar).

Three things really separate the Harrell's from say an RCBS thrower for me:
- It has a micrometer adjustment that clicks, is repeatable, and is linear
- It does seem to be more accurate/less particular about how you run it
- It clamps onto a flat edge instead of requiring a stand

For serious competition beyond 600 I weigh them, but with 8208 or 4895 it's pretty hard to tell the difference on target.

The Micrometer (at 54.75 here):

View attachment 615257

The micrometer is very repeatable, and most extruded powders are ~ 1.75 on the mic (or 7 clicks) per grain. So if I'm trying to throw 40.0 grains, I guess and throw one, lets say I get 38.5 grains. I'd add 10 clicks and throw again. After the third throw I should just be throwing a few to confirm I'm not a click off before I mass produce. And after I do that ONCE, I write down the mic number with my load data and can go back to it immediately, throw one or two to confirm, and I'm mass producing again.

I mentioned I don't use the Harrel's a ton anymore for production (I'll get to that), but what I can't live without it for is load development. I can't shoot that close to my house, and I am pretty impatient with load development and want to have it done in one range trip. I do a little homework, finding a seating depth that's either .020"-.030" off the lands or whatever fits in the mag, then I find charge ranges I think are appropriate and quickly map the Harrell's mic to them, here's one from my notes I did from a 6.5 PRC from a while back:

View attachment 615258

Then I get to the range, load and shoot (hopefully over the chrono) getting something like this:

View attachment 615259

Once I get home, I'll throw a handful at wherever I landed and write down the weight for reference as well.


For anyone loading in decent volume that isn't ONLY loading 1000yd level competition ammo, AND is loading single stage I'd definitely recommend considering something similar. The reason I don't use mine for production much is that I load everything on a progressive, and it's either using a powder funnel and the FX-120i w/ Autotrickler V2 as shown here:

View attachment 615262

I can do 200+ rounds an hour with prepped brass on that setup, pretty relaxed and weighing charges more or less to the kernel. Or...

I set it up with the Hornady thrower with the case activated powder measure as shown here:

View attachment 615263

It's a bit less accurate and a bit more finicky to get dialed in. It does have a micrometer that works pretty well, and once I get it set it often stays there for 1,000+ rounds. And I only use it for 8208 or finer. It's pretty easy to exceed 300 rounds an hour with prepped brass and being relaxed about it.

I can stick the Harrell's in the powder funnel and use it that way; and I have in the past. However, my Autotrickler is so dialed at this point that for this workflow the Harrell's doesn't really save any time.

Really good info. One of the big reasons I haven't tested the Lee thrower is the only electronic scale I have is my old Pact, which only has 0.1 grain resolution. There doesn't seem like much point in testing the thrower without a better scale.

 

[Carl Ross]

T
This works pretty good for meView attachment 615287

I bet you could get some loading done on that, but I probably won't be switching in that direction personally.

Really good info. One of the big reasons I haven't tested the Lee thrower is the only electronic scale I have is my old Pact, which only has 0.1 grain resolution. There doesn't seem like much point in testing the thrower without a better scale.

The fancy scale is nice for testing, and I'm also convinced it can shrink vertical at distance some if you're being picky. It certainly isn't necessary, but I like nice tools and only have 1.3 hobbies.

 

[Jimbee]

Remembered shortly after asking that I have one of those for sizing muzzleloader bullets!

I've sized a ton of 223 range brass with the hand press......not at work. Works great.

 

[Formidilosus]

The measure I showed is the Harrell's 90 Culver measure. I got it just under 10 years ago, it has gone up in price from $209.99 to $230 in that time. It's the cheapest measure Harrell's makes.

I measure powder three ways, and honestly, the Harrell's is my least used of the three due to my workflow, but I still can't imagine getting rid of it for reasons I'll elaborate on below.

First, let's look at repeatability. I chose four powders to test:
H1000 - Large stick extruded
Varget - medium stick extruded
8208 XBR - small stick extruded
Leverevolution - ball

Obviously there are plenty of powders in between, but this should show a decent representation of the performance.

For this test I left the micrometer at one setting (54.75), dumped powder in, then threw 30 charges and weighed them on my FX120i (a lab scale that reads down to .02 grains and is well behaved for anyone unfamiliar). I didn't do any trick double tapping of the handle or body that I've read about anyone doing, I didn't discount throws that had some kernel binding, I didn't even throw a few to get it settled initially. Filled it up with powder and went for it. My results were:

View attachment 615255

I've done test's like this before, and am not surprised by these results. Even with H1000, I'm perfectly happy with this type of performance for:

Anything I do to 600 (I don't compete in the accuracy disciplines at 600).
Anything I do with a 223, my highest volume round (If I was trying to win a PRS match with one, I'd weigh, but I have yet to do that)
Club matches, especially with a powder like 8208 (or 4895 which throws pretty similar).

Three things really separate the Harrell's from say an RCBS thrower for me:
- It has a micrometer adjustment that clicks, is repeatable, and is linear
- It does seem to be more accurate/less particular about how you run it
- It clamps onto a flat edge instead of requiring a stand

For serious competition beyond 600 I weigh them, but with 8208 or 4895 it's pretty hard to tell the difference on target.

The Micrometer (at 54.75 here):

View attachment 615257

The micrometer is very repeatable, and most extruded powders are ~ 1.75 on the mic (or 7 clicks) per grain. So if I'm trying to throw 40.0 grains, I guess and throw one, lets say I get 38.5 grains. I'd add 10 clicks and throw again. After the third throw I should just be throwing a few to confirm I'm not a click off before I mass produce. And after I do that ONCE, I write down the mic number with my load data and can go back to it immediately, throw one or two to confirm, and I'm mass producing again.

I mentioned I don't use the Harrel's a ton anymore for production (I'll get to that), but what I can't live without it for is load development. I can't shoot that close to my house, and I am pretty impatient with load development and want to have it done in one range trip. I do a little homework, finding a seating depth that's either .020"-.030" off the lands or whatever fits in the mag, then I find charge ranges I think are appropriate and quickly map the Harrell's mic to them, here's one from my notes I did from a 6.5 PRC from a while back:

View attachment 615258

Then I get to the range, load and shoot (hopefully over the chrono) getting something like this:

View attachment 615259

Once I get home, I'll throw a handful at wherever I landed and write down the weight for reference as well.


For anyone loading in decent volume that isn't ONLY loading 1000yd level competition ammo, AND is loading single stage I'd definitely recommend considering something similar. The reason I don't use mine for production much is that I load everything on a progressive, and it's either using a powder funnel and the FX-120i w/ Autotrickler V2 as shown here:

View attachment 615262

I can do 200+ rounds an hour with prepped brass on that setup, pretty relaxed and weighing charges more or less to the kernel. Or...

I set it up with the Hornady thrower with the case activated powder measure as shown here:

View attachment 615263

It's a bit less accurate and a bit more finicky to get dialed in. It does have a micrometer that works pretty well, and once I get it set it often stays there for 1,000+ rounds. And I only use it for 8208 or finer. It's pretty easy to exceed 300 rounds an hour with prepped brass and being relaxed about it.

I can stick the Harrell's in the powder funnel and use it that way; and I have in the past. However, my Autotrickler is so dialed at this point that for this workflow the Harrell's doesn't really save any time.

Why are you just now telling me about this? Judas

 

[Carl Ross]

Why are you just now telling me about this? Judas

Ha! Just today realized it was a rabbit hole you hadn’t chased.