New MT Mule Deer Rifle Season

[Ryansven]

How does “older age class” make a better healthier herd? The answer is that it doesn’t. That is the reason that people want to change it- “trophy”. Just be honest about it.

It actually does older age classes is a sign of better buck to doe ratios, which means shorter rut windows and less stress on bucks especially meaning lower death rates over winter. What it also means is shorter fawning periods which leads to higher success rates of survival. Their is plenty of legitament science behind managing herds for older age classes to increase overall herd health.

 

[deadwolf]

I like hunting mule deer

I like hunting them in the rut.

I believe in taking a mature animal that is near the end of his breeding prime.

I have shot younger age class deer at times, not many, but my mindset has changed and have no problem passing them now.

I’ve hunted Montana since 2009, as a non resident from alaska. I see plenty of nonresidents up here as well, and I’m happy to share the state and resources with non residents as I believe all US citizens should have an opportunity to do so.

My family has travelled from out of state to hunt in MT since 1995, some of them are from WA : )

Undoubtedly there are bad apples that travel to hunt in MT, but that number is likely equal to the bad apples that are residents of MT.

We all have a voice in the management of our game populations and hunting opportunities etc. It pays to be involved.

Can’t wait to be back in November.


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[Legend]

I’ve brought this up to the biologists many times. They are trying to “simplify” the regs this year so that goes exact opposite to what managing by district would be. Which to me isn’t right. They also use the excuse of CWD as a reason for all the doe tags

I have to correct you on this one. The biologists are not behind the combining of districts. This idea is co.ing from Hank....because Hank wants to....ie someo e who supported Gianforte wants to.

 

[Montana Slim]

It actually does older age classes is a sign of better buck to doe ratios, which means shorter rut windows and less stress on bucks especially meaning lower death rates over winter. What it also means is shorter fawning periods which leads to higher success rates of survival. Their is plenty of legitament science behind managing herds for older age classes to increase overall herd health.

Much more than bullets and antler size go into population dynamics models and "herd health" - which has been alluded to multiple times...

I think what the people who have been hunting here all their lives see is a fairly drastic change in the amount of pressure, particularly over the last two seasons. If this is going to continue, something needs to be addressed... but to just decide to shorten seasons might not achieve the desired result - and particularly not for residents.

 

[Firestone]

Shorter seasons will increase the amount of hunters in the woods. That is a fact. So if you were hunting Montana this year and you thought the woods were busy be carefull what you wish for.

 

[Tmac]

Much more than bullets and antler size go into population dynamics models and "herd health" - which has been alluded to multiple times...

I think what the people who have been hunting here all their lives see is a fairly drastic change in the amount of pressure, particularly over the last two seasons. If this is going to continue, something needs to be addressed... but to just decide to shorten seasons might not achieve the desired result - and particularly not for residents.

NR General season tags are and have been limited for years. Unless MT increased the NR Big Game Combo, or Deer Combo general licenses available, the pressure increase must be from Residents. I am not sure the caps have been raised the last two seasons for NR’s, have they? If I’m on track, then politically speaking, limiting resident pressure may not be possible. But if NR tags are cut, is the dollar loss acceptable to MT? Bit of a conundrum if I am tracking this issue correctly.

 

[Montana Slim]

NR General season tags are and have been limited for years. Unless MT increased the NR Big Game Combo, or Deer Combo general licenses available, the pressure increase must be from Residents. I am not sure the caps have been raised the last two seasons for NR’s, have they? If I’m on track, then politically speaking, limiting resident pressure may not be possible. But if NR tags are cut, is the dollar loss acceptable to MT? Bit of a conundrum if I am tracking this issue correctly.

I don't know about the actual numbers of tags - good points. But at least in my experience, the NR (AND resident) pressure is much more intense? Maybe it is an issue of more hunter days? I think the nature of hunting itself has changed...

As for what will be done/addressed, there is seldom political will to what is right for a resource unfortunately.

 

[MT257]

NR General season tags are and have been limited for years. Unless MT increased the NR Big Game Combo, or Deer Combo general licenses available, the pressure increase must be from Residents. I am not sure the caps have been raised the last two seasons for NR’s, have they? If I’m on track, then politically speaking, limiting resident pressure may not be possible. But if NR tags are cut, is the dollar loss acceptable to MT? Bit of a conundrum if I am tracking this issue correctly.

NR Elk and deer tags such as LE permit elk and deer are capped by state statute. But no one ever mentions doe tags or cow elk tags. If those are not all awarded in the draw then they go OTC, in which there is no cap on NR who wish to pick up an elk/doe tag to go hunt. This adds pressure on the landscape as well and no one ever thinks about that. People just assume all this pressure is for bulls/bucks.

 

[S.Clancy]

I've lived in MT my whole life, hunted for 23 yrs. Here is what I have observed concerning mule deer.

1. Increases in elk number = decreases in mule deer numbers. I've witnessed this across several mountain ranges. There are 2 main reasons for this. First, as forests mature and primary successionary plants are replaced by grass and trees, habitat is more conducive to elk than mule deer. Secondly, elk are much more competitive than mule deer and can displace them on the landscape.

2. Whitetail deer competition with mule deer. This was very evident in NE MT this year. Some areas experienced massive die offs of whitetail due to EHD. Creek bottom habitats normally 100% whitetails were almost 100% mule deer. This suggests that mule deer are displaced from thos habitats by whitetail deer, not by habitat needs.

3. Hunting pressure is not static and "flows" around the state. Currently, certain areas of Eastern MT are absolutely inundated with NR and R hunters alike.

4. Age class is very difficult to observe and quantify without mandatory reporting and a concerted effort to age mule deer. Do I think age class is decreasing....I dont know, we kill some OLD bucks regularly. Do I think most people are shooting young bucks....absolutely. I tend to think that there is more mature animals on the landscape than we realize.

5. Decreasing doe numbers probably equals bigger bucks, for 2 reasons. First, decreasing the number of animals on the landscape means more nutrition per animal. Second, if individual does are healthier they produce healthier fawns. These healthier fawns, if male, produce larger antlers over their life time. I have seen this with certain age class of bucks over time in MT and it has been demonstrated in resesrch in WY.

6. MT changes doe tag allocations to align with population trends they are seeing. R 7 generally has 10-11k mule deer doe tags. This year was less than half of that due to a 30-40% drop in population due to acute, extreme drought.

7. I think the long term future of mule deer in the entire West is bleak. I base this mainly on habitat. In mountainous areas mule deer are losing critical winter habitat to development at a staggering pace. In the plains and SW increased drought length and intensity are limiting habitat and numbers.

8. I think people want the solutions to be as easy as "stop hunting them during whatever period". Its not. The West is full of different strategies for hunting mule deer. With a few exceptions, mule deer populations are decreasing across all areas. This alone is evidence that season structure isnt the "golden ticket" we all think or want it to be.

 

[Pony Soldier]

In the districts I hunt in there are none left. 6 weeks in the field and I saw 1 doe. For 318, 350, 322, 380 shut it down for 10 years. Then look at it again - maybe. They all died in 92-94 and nobody cared. It's tough to recover from extinct.

The only place I see mule deer is in town.

 

[Clarktar]

I've lived in MT my whole life, hunted for 23 yrs. Here is what I have observed concerning mule deer.

1. Increases in elk number = decreases in mule deer numbers. I've witnessed this across several mountain ranges. There are 2 main reasons for this. First, as forests mature and primary successionary plants are replaced by grass and trees, habitat is more conducive to elk than mule deer. Secondly, elk are much more competitive than mule deer and can displace them on the landscape.

2. Whitetail deer competition with mule deer. This was very evident in NE MT this year. Some areas experienced massive die offs of whitetail due to EHD. Creek bottom habitats normally 100% whitetails were almost 100% mule deer. This suggests that mule deer are displaced from thos habitats by whitetail deer, not by habitat needs.

3. Hunting pressure is not static and "flows" around the state. Currently, certain areas of Eastern MT are absolutely inundated with NR and R hunters alike.

4. Age class is very difficult to observe and quantify without mandatory reporting and a concerted effort to age mule deer. Do I think age class is decreasing....I dont know, we kill some OLD bucks regularly. Do I think most people are shooting young bucks....absolutely. I tend to think that there is more mature animals on the landscape than we realize.

5. Decreasing doe numbers probably equals bigger bucks, for 2 reasons. First, decreasing the number of animals on the landscape means more nutrition per animal. Second, if individual does are healthier they produce healthier fawns. These healthier fawns, if male, produce larger antlers over their life time. I have seen this with certain age class of bucks over time in MT and it has been demonstrated in resesrch in WY.

6. MT changes doe tag allocations to align with population trends they are seeing. R 7 generally has 10-11k mule deer doe tags. This year was less than half of that due to a 30-40% drop in population due to acute, extreme drought.

7. I think the long term future of mule deer in the entire West is bleak. I base this mainly on habitat. In mountainous areas mule deer are losing critical winter habitat to development at a staggering pace. In the plains and SW increased drought length and intensity are limiting habitat and numbers.

8. I think people want the solutions to be as easy as "stop hunting them during whatever period". Its not. The West is full of different strategies for hunting mule deer. With a few exceptions, mule deer populations are decreasing across all areas. This alone is evidence that season structure isnt the "golden ticket" we all think or want it to be.

Well written cuz.

I would like to see the season truncated and avoid the rut. Only because I hope it will deter NR after a few years of "harder" hunting. Then I can go back to buying a NR when i drive into MT. Yes, I'm as greedy as they come.

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[Ryansven]

2. Whitetail deer competition with mule deer. This was very evident in NE MT this year. Some areas experienced massive die offs of whitetail due to EHD. Creek bottom habitats normally 100% whitetails were almost 100% mule deer. This suggests that mule deer are displaced from thos habitats by whitetail deer, not by habitat

I think the drought this last year in NE Montana had more to do with mule deer on creek bottoms then ehd die offs. That was where the best water, food and habitat in general was this year. Unfortunately the water was all but gone and and very little forage left in the hills. That is my thought on that anyway.

 

[Ryansven]

Much more than bullets and antler size go into population dynamics models and "herd health" - which has been alluded to multiple times...

I think what the people who have been hunting here all their lives see is a fairly drastic change in the amount of pressure, particularly over the last two seasons. If this is going to continue, something needs to be addressed... but to just decide to shorten seasons might not achieve the desired result - and particularly not for residents.

Definitely agree!

 

[SoYoCo]

For all the Montana hunters. Can anyone give me some info on region 6? I hunted the area around Nelson’s Creek north to the Missouri River 2 years ago. I’m looking to head back this fall. Is it worth looking south to the SE portion of the region, or plan on hunting the mothers portion of region 6 along the river. We had some hard hunting 2 years ago, but the experience has stuck with me and I can’t wait to get back out. I hope the herd health rebounds a little. It’s sad to hear so many story’s about few deer and CWD…..

 

[S.Clancy]

I think the drought this last year in NE Montana had more to do with mule deer on creek bottoms then ehd die offs. That was where the best water, food and habitat in general was this year. Unfortunately the water was all but gone and and very little forage left in the hills. That is my thought on that anyway.

From what I saw hunting that wasn't true. We located mule deer over a number of habitats miles from riparian areas. In other areas of the state where EHD had less impact, riparian areas were still dominated by whitetail deer. In NE MT l'm referencing major streams, Beaver Cr, Milk River, etc.

 

[S.Clancy]

Well written cuz.

I would like to see the season truncated and avoid the rut. Only because I hope it will deter NR after a few years of "harder" hunting. Then I can go back to buying a NR when i drive into MT. Yes, I'm as greedy as they come.

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It seems to me the leftover deer A licenses may be gone for a while, unfortunately

 

[Ryansven]

From what I saw hunting that wasn't true. We located mule deer over a number of habitats miles from riparian areas. In other areas of the state where EHD had less impact, riparian areas were still dominated by whitetail deer. In NE MT l'm referencing major streams, Beaver Cr, Milk River, etc.

That is the area I am in and can assure you water was a extremely limited in the hills this summer. Which has major shifts to wildlife in those areas.

 

[Erict]

This year likely caused an anomaly in number of resident hunters (due to COVID) and wildlife (due to drought/disease).

At some point, money will be part of the discussion. I suspect that MOGA would be dead-set against any season restrictions.

FYI - 2019 - Montana Hunting License Sales:

Residents -----get 90% of tags, account for 58% of sales ($12,361,151)
Non-residents get 10% of tags, account for 42% of sales ($9,137,209)

 

[Balderdash]

In the districts I hunt in there are none left. 6 weeks in the field and I saw 1 doe. For 318, 350, 322, 380 shut it down for 10 years. Then look at it again - maybe. They all died in 92-94 and nobody cared. It's tough to recover from extinct.

The only place I see mule deer is in town.

Is there a substantial wolf population where you hunt?

Reason I ask is that the phenomenon of game animals being plentiful near town but almost absent from nearby bigger, wild country is something I've both witnessed first hand and heard about from others who've lived through wolf re-establishments. Of course a lot of factors go into this, but the end results always seem the same.

I haven't hunted the Flat Tops in CO in years, but I had some good hunts there and it almost makes me want to cry when I think about what the wolves are likely going to do to the robust elk herds and, by extension, the public land elk hunting opportunities that area has had enjoyed for generations.

 

[Pony Soldier]

At the time they died it had to have been disease. I found skeletons in draws of all age groups. With less than 5% surviving the cats whittled them down to nearly nothing and now we have wolves.

It's down to the point that if you cut a deer track in snow over a 15 mile ride it's time for a celebration. I have had weeks that I never cut a deer track. In the early 90s it was common to see herds of 50 multiple times per day. I haven't seen a deer during the summer at the ranch now for three years.