New MT Mule Deer Rifle Season

[Erict]

The Montana Fish and Game Commission met Friday and streamed via Zoom. They followed this AGENDA. Discussion about a limited "experimental" 3 week season in Region 2 (HD 212, 213, 214, 215, 217) began where the video below starts. I found it rather stunning that the R2 biologist discussing the trial season cited a lack of deer harvest surveys - one would think they would have their statistics in order ("follow the science").

Fast forward to 1:52 for a short explainer on what they were voting on and also to hear MOGA lend it's support.

I didn't have time to listen to the elk part, I imagine it went on for some time....

 

[pk_]

Isn’t MT a 1 buck state???

And people want MORE restrictions on killing that one lousy buck?????



I will pray for you MT.

 

[Pony Soldier]

There is nothing left to shoot in the west. The few breeding survivors live in the towns. Nothing to shoot over three weeks will make no differance.

Once again. There is nothing left.

 

[deadwolf]

There is nothing left to shoot in the west. The few breeding survivors live in the towns. Nothing to shoot over three weeks will make no differance.

Once again. There is nothing left.

I saw more deer in Montana in 2020 than I had in the previous 6 seasons of hunting. No doubt this may be region specific, but I actually thought it was picking up. I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed.


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[Pony Soldier]

I spent 6 weeks on a horse covering 10-15 miles a day and cut 1 deer track. I haven't seen a buck of any type in 7 years and I hunt every day. I hunt in region 2 and 3. It's bad!!

 

[sneaky]

There is nothing Montana needs more than for nonresidents that aren't happy with their MT hunting experience to make recommendations on how our seasons should be structured. Yeah, I suspect there will be some changes at some point, but damned if I'm voting to give up opportunity as a resident to make sure the hoards of nonresident hunters that ran me over in September and November have a better experience.

I've argued to keep nonresident hunting opportunities, especially the public land hunter, in the past. However, when you guys start feeling like somehow it's your right to dictate how Montana manages it's hunts, to make sure it meets your expectations, my concern for your opportunity disappears pretty quick. My vote is to cut nonresidents to 2 weeks in October before taking any opportunity from residents.

I moved here myself, so can't fault anyone for wanting to move or hunt here. However, Montana has rubbed off on me in the last 10 years. Take the following as friendly advice. If you want to make friends fast, show up in Montana and start recommending changes as a newcomer or as a nonresident hunter. Better yet, keep your nonresident plates on while doing it to make friends even faster.

Now you know how we feel in Idaho listening to NR complain about changing tag prices and tags restricted to units.

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[hobbes]

Now you know how we feel in Idaho listening to NR complain about changing tag prices and tags restricted to units.

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Now you know how we feel in Idaho listening to NR complain about changing tag prices and tags restricted to units.

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Folks complaining about cost, season structure, and tag allocation in MT is nothing new. I'm not familiar with Idaho's prices or season structure but have seen folks complain about it more lately too.

 

[sneaky]

Folks complaining about cost, season structure, and tag allocation in MT is nothing new. I'm not familiar with Idaho's prices or season structure but have seen folks complain about it more lately too.

"We pay the majority of your budget" is another familiar refrain. Our tags are no more expensive than any other state, they just were used to having their cake and eating it too. Elk tags were always zone specific, but when they changed deer tags to unit specific it caused the big blow up. Wildlife in every state is held in trust for residents of that particular state, the fact we can hunt in any other state is a privilege and not a right, and quite a few people don't understand that concept.

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[COSA]

By FWP's own crappy statistics... Over 60% of mule deer bucks are harvested every year statewide. The percentage of public land bucks is probably around 80-90%. Other western states typically harvest 25-40% in their average units. If it were not for the private sanctuaries, there would be nothing left.
I'm not for doing away with the general just yet, but would like to see the rifle season moved forward, and then let archery hunters hunt during the rut.
As a resident, I switched to hunting whitetails. I'm not advocating we make MT a trophy state, but I like to at least know there's a chance I could come upon a mature buck when hunting - I don't feel that way now.

 

[brocksw]

I don’t mean that to be a jerk. I’m genuinely curious why people believe that hunting opportunity should be reduced just so they can see a bigger buck easier?

The GRAM bro!

Not only that, but shortening the season concentrates the same amount of people into smaller windows which will greatly and noticeably increase the amount of pressure and people you see. It also causes more people to shoot the first animal they see because they feel they don’t have enough time to let one pass. That’s real, and it’s noticeable. Shortening season has the exact opposite effect of what people thinks it does.

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ND is right next door and has the exact same habitat as eastern MT. We have identical to slgithly higer rifle success rates on a 16.5 day season vs Montana's rifle season at 5 weeks.

If MT shortens the season enough to impact success, they will have to cap tags sooner or later. 100k pumpkins running around in such a short window will lead to people complaining about too many hunters. The exact same complaint people have here in ND when our tag numbers get to high. The exact same complaint people had in the breaks before it went to permit (a bunch of people out hunting the rut at the same time). The only reason MT kinda works right now is because the season is longer.

Our game and fish calls the rifle season the great equalizer. In 1 fall they can have huge influence on deer populations by using rifle tags. Cut buck tags and eliminate doe tags, huge bump in bucks and does. Increase tags, hunters knock it down.

 

[beauhunter]

The future of mule deer management in Montana is coming to the main point of this thread - will Montana continue to manage for hunter opportunity or will the state manage for deer quality. FWP wants to hear from us, at least at the local level (the commission in Helena is another story). The proposed combination of districts 101 & 109 here in the NW corner and the shortened rifle season was meet with overwhelming pushback from the public. It appears that people would rather have opportunity as opposed to trophy quality (at least for Region 1). I cannot speak for the management of deer in the eastern part of the state as it has been 10+ years since I have hunted deer out there. In NW MT the mule deer population has been declining for the past 20 years and the current trend is no different. Like others have stated though, the solution is not as simple as changing the season structure. There are many factors at play and habitat is the most important without question.

In a collaborative effort, the Mule Deer Foundation and FWP have been trapping mule deer and monitoring them with gps collars in Region 1 for the past 4-5 years. What the data has shown is that even though the mule deer population is declining and hunters are killing bucks all November long the pregnancy rates in mule deer does are above 90%. Hunting bucks, even during the rut with a rifle, does not affect the population of the herd. The problem is that even though 90% of does are being bred, only 70-75% are making it through the winter and then of that percentage the recruitment rates are around 25-30%. Breaking those numbers down here in NW MT we are only seeing about 20 fawns born per 100 does. Does drive population and if we are losing 25-30% every winter and replacing that with 20% (only half of which are does) every spring it doesn't take a math whiz to see that the outlook is bleak.

Loss of quality habitat is by far the biggest problem facing mule deer in NW MT. Much of the winter range that hasn't been developed here is now in the works to build more subdivisions and between human pressure and competition from whitetails the mule deer have been relegated to subprime winter ground in the timbered foothills of the valleys. Sure it provides thermal cover but it doesn't provide quality feed that these deer need to make it through the winter.

Predators are tough on mule deer here as well. It's not the wolves, the bears or even the countless WA plates here with their rifles every November though . Throughout the study mountain lions have accounted for about 90% of the mule deer predation in NW MT. Lion numbers have been steadily increasing and does that line up with the mule deer decrease? Sure but it's not the only cause. There are a ton of factors at play and thinking that changing one thing is the solution is oversimplifying the issue. It is going to take everyone (hunters, FWP, forest managers, etc.) if were going to reverse the trend that mule deer are currently on. If you aren't pleased by the amount of "quality" mule deer you are seeing I encourage you to get in touch with your local FWP office and your local MDF chapter *shameless plug*.

the R2 biologist discussing the trial season cited a lack of deer harvest surveys

This is the same biologist who advocated for the additional harvest of 15 bucks in district 270 (a LE district) for the purpose of monitoring CWD. These additional tags were approved by Helena even though there were no positive CWD cases in the area and the biologist already had access to the names and contact information of the hunters who drew the original 45 tags issued for district 270 because why would she bother getting samples from an established pool when we can just take more deer off the landscape. I'm finished venting. Thanks for your time.

 

[cgasner1]

Moving the deer season back to October 1 would create a mess with archery elk season. To me it seems the current system is just out of date everything has changed from the population to the weapons. That’s why I think we need a change. Guy could never shoot 600 yards with such ease in the past. Shortening the season just pushes people to still fill the tag that won’t change with a 3 month or 3 day season people that have to shoot a deer will shoot one. I’d love to see a 3 week rifle season a week break for the game then a 3 week short weapon season. Bows primitive muzzy and crossbows. As is we are fighting off a crossbow season so to me that would take that from them also. This state has changed a lot in the last few years I saw it almost every day in the field. I let a mid 170” to maybe 180” buck walk off during rifle so I could do the heritage season. This wasn’t about trophy hunting I just really enjoy hunting with a much more primitive weapon.


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[Formidilosus]

This wasn’t about trophy hunting I just really enjoy hunting with a much more primitive weapon.

So why don’t you just hunt with a “primitive weapon” then? Why do you, or anyone needs a special just for me season?

How about you get a tag. The season runs from this date to this date. Have fun.

 

[willfrye027]

Very few “opportunity” states left out there. Careful what we wish for..everyone loves big deer but I’d rather have a tough hunt lined up every year than no tag in my pocket. I know of some serious deer hunters killing big antlered, mature deer in Montana every year so they are definitely there.

If you want an easy, rut fest road hunt with big deer everywhere save up your points for something limited entry or spend the $$$ on a private land hunt. Meanwhile I will be hunting hard on public with a tag in my pocket..

 

[Geewhiz]

Very few “opportunity” states left out there. Careful what we wish for..everyone loves big deer but I’d rather have a tough hunt lined up every year than no tag in my pocket. I know of some serious deer hunters killing big antlered, mature deer in Montana every year so they are definitely there.

If you want an easy, rut fest road hunt with big deer everywhere save up your points for something limited entry or spend the $$$ on a private land hunt. Meanwhile I will be hunting hard on public with a tag in my pocket..

100% agree buddy. Wish more people would think this way. Seams as though most people would rather hunt once every 10 years to have a chance at a trophy than hunt every year, also with a chance of a trophy.

 

[willfrye027]

100% agree buddy. Wish more people would think this way. Seams as though most people would rather hunt once every 10 years to have a chance at a trophy than hunt every year, also with a chance of a trophy.

I think it’s been rough everywhere the past couple years..IMO herds struggling a bit…but even in units I hunted where the herd is at or over objective, still tough hunting. I think it more from warm hunting weather and tons of guys in the field due to Covid and how popular hunting the west is right now. Just makes hunting tough all around, but the dudes who some years can find bucks from the road struggle and start wanting to change shit after a bad year or two.

In Wyoming general I watched a forky bed down 10 minutes before sunrise on opening day after hearing a bunch of rigs rolling by on the road 3/4 mile below him. He was so freaked out…a tiny forky…

And some of these units there were deer everywhere a couple days before season and they vanish once the shooting and the constant hum of razors running up and down the road starts! Without good weather the hunting stays tough. I imagine Montana is similar even with the rut.

 

[Geewhiz]

I think it’s been rough everywhere the past couple years..IMO herds struggling a bit…but even in units I hunted where the herd is at or over objective, still tough hunting. I think it more from warm hunting weather and tons of guys in the field due to Covid and how popular hunting the west is right now. Just makes hunting tough all around, but the dudes who some years can find bucks from the road struggle and start wanting to change shit after a bad year or two.

In Wyoming general I watched a forky bed down 10 minutes before sunrise on opening day after hearing a bunch of rigs rolling by on the road 3/4 mile below him. He was so freaked out…a tiny forky…

And some of these units there were deer everywhere a couple days before season and they vanish once the shooting and the constant hum of razors running up and down the road starts! Without good weather the hunting stays tough. I imagine Montana is similar even with the rut.

It just seams like people are upset when they don't see giant bucks day after day. If you're not seeing what you're looking for, look harder. I haven't killed a giant buck but I've killed mature bucks that I've been happy with. And I know people that hunt much harder than I do that do kill real nice bucks year after year.

 

[Firestone]

Very few “opportunity” states left out there. Careful what we wish for..everyone loves big deer but I’d rather have a tough hunt lined up every year than no tag in my pocket. I know of some serious deer hunters killing big antlered, mature deer in Montana every year so they are definitely there

100 percent

 

[dirtytough]

Since I'm a non res this holds zero weight. Just some thoughts though.

I always read it's non res, and res from the west side of the state doing all the killing. My buddy that lives in E MT is disgusted by most of the hunters he knows. They fill every tag they can including doe tags. FYI those guys/gals live on the eastside.

I would be more along the lines of limit the otc hunting. Instead of doing that though, make it so you can get a general tag every year, as your first choice. That way the people that want opportunity still get to hunt. The people that want to hunt more limited units have a better chance to draw.

Coyotes are killing more deer than people realize in E MT. 3 deer were killed in 3 days on one ranch. Close to the roads. No clue how many further from the roads. There were zero rabbits or mice seen in 1 day of hunting. While hunting that 1 day I saw 7 coyotes surrounding a deer. They didn't get that one. Maybe it's a localized issue. Maybe not.

 

[BDWMT]

MT FWP should have made this change a long time ago. I support mule deer rifle hunts in November by limited draw only.