New Alaska Sheep Regulations

[Stid2677]

The second part of the proposal allowing a NR to take guide required species on behalf of a resident permit holder was struck down. Only the portion I posted passed.

Thanks

 

[weedwacker42]

Complete flatlander novice here, poking his nose where it doesn't belong...but would one day love to hunt AK. Obviously harvest and weather/climate are having an effect on sheep numbers. Can't change climate obviously, so have to look to hunting/harvest. Knowing nothing of the numbers themselves and recognizing that money for the state, tourism, and guides drives the continued push for hunting, would there ever be a reason to just institute a one or two year moratorium on the hunting of sheep? I know that's WAY extreme and (probably?) unprecedented, but would it help much? As a hunter, I understand that sacrifices sometimes need to be made for the greater good of the herd/species. But, as I said, my dog isn't really in the fight at this time. I certainly defer to the seasoned residents and experienced sheep hunters. Just spitballin'.

 

[Snyd]

Thanks for posting YK. Frankly I think that is a great proposal.
We've never taken more than one ram off of the mountain per hunt/year as an Ak resident family anyway.

There are some great comments here, Perry, Steve...others.
It is absolutely a 'follow the money' scenario and really disgusting. The state, transporters, (a subject for another thread), non-res guides.

One thing I have found though...After becoming a non-resident I noticed the passion of sheep hunting for those going to Alaska to chase to sheep.
People think that these are rich doctors and lawyers with money to burn....not the case. There are those fellas, but many of the guided clientele are younger, hard working blue collar guys who save long and hard for that opportunity. These are guys that are up at o'dark-thirty running down the lower 48 road with their packs on...training in mud races throughout the year. These guys aren't coming to AK to go home empty handed!

I've sheep hunted as heard as anyone on this forum, but in the end I headed back to Fairbanks to get to work (as a teacher), with the possibility of returning to the mountians or tundra for sheep, caribou, goat, moose, blacktail, etc. The thought of not harvesting wasn't the end of the world. Although we got after it pretty hard.
These non-res fellas don't have that thinking--they are all in. 20K makes for A LOT of incentive.

Yup, I hear ya.

 

[adventure907]

Thanks for posting YK. Frankly I think that is a great proposal.
We've never taken more than one ram off of the mountain per hunt/year as an Ak resident family anyway.

There are some great comments here, Perry, Steve...others.
It is absolutely a 'follow the money' scenario and really disgusting. The state, transporters, (a subject for another thread), non-res guides.

One thing I have found though...After becoming a non-resident I noticed the passion of sheep hunting for those going to Alaska to chase to sheep.
People think that these are rich doctors and lawyers with money to burn....not the case. There are those fellas, but many of the guided clientele are younger, hard working blue collar guys who save long and hard for that opportunity. These are guys that are up at o'dark-thirty running down the lower 48 road with their packs on...training in mud races throughout the year. These guys aren't coming to AK to go home empty handed!

I've sheep hunted as heard as anyone on this forum, but in the end I headed back to Fairbanks to get to work (as a teacher), with the possibility of returning to the mountians or tundra for sheep, caribou, goat, moose, blacktail, etc. The thought of not harvesting wasn't the end of the world. Although we got after it pretty hard.
These non-res fellas don't have that thinking--they are all in. 20K makes for A LOT of incentive.

Frank, that is quite refreshing and fantastic to see somebody directly affected by this proposal, in support of it. Its also quite nice to see that as a family, you guys have never wanted to take more than one ram per year for your family.

One thing that has always bothered me is guys that kill one dink ram every year, just so they can kill a sheep. These are often 6 and 7 year old rams that never get the chance to get big and grow old. While perfectly legal, I just wish people would be more selective, and after getting a sheep or two to their name, be more selective and hunt older more mature rams. If you go home without, so be it. But guys that shoot dink rams year after year, just so they can say they killed a sheep, well, no wonder we have sheep problems in this state.

Anyway, I just wanted to thank you Frank for not being one of those bloodthirsty families. I love to hunt sheep every year, and I hope I always have that opportunity, but by no means will I kill a ram every year, just because I don't think thats true to myself, and true to the sheep.

 

[kscowboy01]

It's also why when one of you hire a guide and show up on your Alaska Dream hunt with a "30 year Registered Master Guide" chances are more likely than not that you will be hunting with one of his non-resident assistant guides. Perhaps a 20 YO College kid and his first or second time in the Sheep Mtns. So, the state makes you, a NR pay $15000 because you're a NR to hunt with a NR. Your "30 year Registered Master Guide" may only be the guy flying you out to base camp and back to the airport.

It's good business for the guide outfit. Guides can hire as many assistant guides as they want. The Registered Guide himself is NOT required to accompany the client in field. Do the math.

peace

You just stated the Tom Shankster Alaska Trophy Hunts business model

 

[DonW28]

How does Alaska normally handle rule changes like this one? Will it be retroactive or beginning in 2016 season for the 1 in 4? Seems like if you had a deposit down for this year and had killed a sheep in say 2013 you might have a serious issue.

 

[idelkslayer]

It amazes me that over 40% of sheep in Alaska are killed by NRs. I am not completely familiar with the situation beyond what I have read in this thread but it seems like many options could be implemented that would help sheep herds. I do not believe that the 1:4 rule will help. The number of NR hunters that return during that short of a time period must be a tiny percentage of all NR hunters. Removing the rule requiring that NRs use outfitters would certainly reduce success rates but it would increase the number of NRs coming to hunt unless another control was put in place. Most people here seem to agree that most people would be happy with just one or two sheep in their lifetime and that even some residents can't hope for any better. So would it be such a hardship to put a lifetime limit on the number of sheep that a NR can kill? Maybe 2? Without the outfitter requirement it suddenly becomes more affordable for your average Joe to hunt alaska sheep, with a lifetime limit and the financial ability to return again NR may become more selective than if they have paid $20 K and are feeling the pressure to not go home empty handed.

 

[Ray]

How does Alaska normally handle rule changes like this one? Will it be retroactive or beginning in 2016 season for the 1 in 4? Seems like if you had a deposit down for this year and had killed a sheep in say 2013 you might have a serious issue.

Most rules have a starting year in them the following year after acceptance, but sometimes they start the next state fiscal year which will be July 1, 2016. If there is not a specific date then it starts on the next state FY cycle.

 

[Ray]

It amazes me that over 40% of sheep in Alaska are killed by NRs. I am not completely familiar with the situation beyond what I have read in this thread but it seems like many options could be implemented that would help sheep herds. I do not believe that the 1:4 rule will help. The number of NR hunters that return during that short of a time period must be a tiny percentage of all NR hunters. Removing the rule requiring that NRs use outfitters would certainly reduce success rates but it would increase the number of NRs coming to hunt unless another control was put in place. Most people here seem to agree that most people would be happy with just one or two sheep in their lifetime and that even some residents can't hope for any better. So would it be such a hardship to put a lifetime limit on the number of sheep that a NR can kill? Maybe 2? Without the outfitter requirement it suddenly becomes more affordable for your average Joe to hunt alaska sheep, with a lifetime limit and the financial ability to return again NR may become more selective than if they have paid $20 K and are feeling the pressure to not go home empty handed.

That success rate is directly tied to an NR having a guide do 90% of the work required to be successful.

Removing the guide requirement will then move the limiting factor to the method of access. Walk in OTC areas will be impacted the most. Air transport will be the only control as there are only so many licensed transporters, places to land, and hours in the day to fly. If people think the bow hunting for caribou along the Haul road is bad, wait till all those NRs get to chase sheep around at the same time in the pass.

The cost for a resident to take a ram can be as low as $100 for gas and food. Adding an airplane ride to that can push you over $1000 and up. With no guide requirement a NR could be looking at spending less than $2,000 for a sheep hunt. Without some detailed knowledge that could be a real expensive camping trip at an over crowded cub strip with no sheep for 20 miles around.

The other issue that would explode into a huge problem is the taking of sub-legal rams. It happens several times a season with residents and a couple times a season with guided hunters. The full curl determination is not easy. A ram that is not obvious with a wide flair, or tips above its eyeballs, has to move its head to just the right side angle to get the view required to make sure its a legal ram. If they are the kind of hunter that pees their pants at a whitetail with more than four tines on each beam, then they will be killing a bunch of tiny rams before they figure it out. The resource wont support that kind of taking.

Due to how the state constitution is written, putting a lifetime restriction on a species will probably not hold up for more than a few minutes in court. However, creating a periodic taking to manage the species is fine.

 

[Snyd]

It amazes me that over 40% of sheep in Alaska are killed by NRs.....

If I remember correctly. In some Game Management Units it's higher. Here are some interesting numbers from an interesting article written a few years ago...

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/live-hunt/2011/04/sheep-wars-part-i

Tony Hollis, a wildlife biologist with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game and an avid sheep hunter, was able to help me with a few of these. The numbers vary slightly from year to year, but a 10-year sampling from 2000–2009 showed that non-resident hunters made up 19.5% of hunters and killed 39.5% of the rams taken. They averaged a 63.5% success rate, as opposed to residents, who posted only 23.8% success. The non-resident success rate is understandably higher because they are hunting with guides, but their percentage of the total harvest is significantly higher than just about any other state’s non-resident/resident percentages, especially for sheep species. In Alaska, the majority of sheep country that isn’t locked up by the feds offers public access. Non-residents must hunt with a guide, but they can purchase sheep tags over the counter. And with no guide exclusivity on state land, it is basically a free-for-all.

 

[Snyd]

You just stated the Tom Shankster Alaska Trophy Hunts business model

I know of others as well.

 

[Yellowknife]

If I remember correctly. In some Game Management Units it's higher.

That is true. For some really prime sheep country, the NR sheep take is over half of the harvest. Western AK Range comes to mind.

 

[mwhamm]

On the plus side of the changes this year, I can take my kids hunting in the youth hunt in Tom Shanksters back yard before he lets his legion of out of state guides loose. Or any other area dominated by guides.... Like the southern wrangles.

 

[Nick Muche]

Doesn't the NR sheep take include NoK harvests? Or were those considered with the resident harvest?

 

[Ray]

Doesn't the NR sheep take include NoK harvests? Or were those considered with the resident harvest?

If I recall Tom's lecture a few years ago, he was not able to tease out the NOK from NR as its not compiled by F&G that way. NR is NR no matter who takes them into the mountains.

Personally, with resident success rates so low, I would hazard a guess that NOK hunters would not be any more successful than residents. With the NOK to the Proving Trail dudes being the exception.

 

[Yellowknife]

If I recall Tom's lecture a few years ago, he was not able to tease out the NOK from NR as its not compiled by F&G that way. NR is NR no matter who takes them into the mountains.

F&G did it this way. Accuracy isn't likely perfect, but the best they had on short notice last week.

Personally, with resident success rates so low, I would hazard a guess that NOK hunters would not be any more successful than residents. With the NOK to the Proving Trail dudes being the exception.

Might ping Bambistew on that. I think he's worked out the different success rates, and I believe he mentioned that NR NoK was actually a bit higher than residents. If true, I would guess it's likely because they are more serious about what is typically a once-in-a-lifetime type hunt than the locals.

 

[Nick Muche]

http://www.boone-crockett.org/news/...ers&utm_campaign=a78d557cbe-Feb_2016_Newslett

 

[colonel00]

Very interesting thread and good discussions. As a NR, I also dream of someday having the chance to chase sheep. Personally, I wouldn't mind a NR draw as long as the guide requirement was dropped. This would still allow control over the numbers of hunters and hopefully reduce some of the strain on the walk in areas.

 

[Steve O]

Very interesting thread and good discussions. As a NR, I also dream of someday having the chance to chase sheep. Personally, I wouldn't mind a NR draw as long as the guide requirement was dropped. This would still allow control over the numbers of hunters and hopefully reduce some of the strain on the walk in areas.

That would be GREAT...but it ain't gunna happen. Too much BIG money involved.

Good luck guys, this is not going to be an easy fix.

 

[Kevin Dill]

What seems counterintuitive: There is no interruption to the group which proves to have a disproportionately large share of the sheep kill...nonresidents guided. The new NOK rules might cause a few less sheep to go down, but also stands to penalize Alaska resident hunters who hunt with their NOK. The group of (theoretical) hunters which would have the least effect on harvest rates would be unguided nonresidents, so long as their numbers were controlled by tag allocations and drawings. It stands to reason that AK residents won't see any decrease in the overall sheep kill until those who are killing them....kill significantly less of them. Any way you cut it, it mainly comes back to resident kill + nonresident guided kill to = overall kill.