Monos vs. Lead. Which do you choose and why?

[Igloo]

I didn’t mean to quote you directly in my last post. Sorry about that. I shoot monos and lead. I also fish with lead and tungsten. I also shoot pointy sticks at animals which are likely much less “effective” than monos. I just generally believe in not giving an inch if the data doesn’t show conclusive evidence that the change is necessary.

No worries! Got ya, as you noted, the quote made me think you were replying to me.

Firm believer that what you choose to hunt/fish with is your business either way.

 

[JFK]

I have to shoot monos in Ca, and shoot them out of state as well. They’ve worked well for me but I know they can have shortcomings, just like any other bullet. Overall I’ve been happy with how they’ve worked on game. Nothing weird, no “penciling through”. Everything I’ve shot from deer, elk antelope and a lot of pigs have dropped in a reasonable distance. I don’t believe I have have it all figured out though, and would prefer it if lead wasn’t banned here. Not sure if I’d use it at this point, but I don’t agree with the heavy handedness of bans.

To say that “California banned lead so none is being shot” is false. Guys are still hunting with lead. Some big game but truckloads of coyotes and ground squirrels.

 

[Pony Soldier]

I quit believing anything out of the USGS during the Clinton admin when my friends there were instructed on what they could say or not say regardless of the truth. If you are are dependent on our gov for the truth - start doing stretching exercises so you don't pull anything when you kiss your ass goodbye.

 

[wyosam]

I quit believing anything out of the USGS during the Clinton admin when my friends there were instructed on what they could say or not say regardless of the truth. If you are are dependent on our gov for the truth - start doing stretching exercises so you don't pull anything when you kiss your ass goodbye.

Out of curiosity, if you wanted to make an informed opinion based on sound science, where would you accept that information from?


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[JGRaider]

Not the Federal Gov't, that's for sure.

 

[2-Stix]

Every deer I have shot with copper pencils through. This was the latest, Nov 8th 2023 on a 150# blacktail. 7mm Rem Mag, 217 yards with a Barnes LRX 139 going about 2,800 fps and 2,400# of energy.

We just need a copper that acts like a lead and blows apart to make a 5"-7" wound channel.

 

[wyosam]

Every deer I have shot with copper pencils through. This was the latest, Nov 8th 2023 on a 150# blacktail. 7mm Rem Mag, 217 yards with a Barnes LRX 139 going about 2,800 fps and 2,400# of energy.

We just need a copper that acts like a lead and blows apart to make a 5"-7" wound channel.
View attachment 682114

Plenty of options available. Look at monos made by companies like hammer, and a few others whose names I don’t recall. Pretty much anyone but Barnes, Hornady, or Nosler. In particular, the latest offering from Hammer the HHT line is showing pretty massive destruction.


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[2-Stix]

Plenty of options available. Look at monos made by companies like hammer, and a few others whose names I don’t recall. Pretty much anyone but Barnes, Hornady, or Nosler. In particular, the latest offering from Hammer the HHT line is showing pretty massive destruction.


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I dont reload currently but I will in the coming years and will look into those options, thank you.

 

[Pony Soldier]

A masters program at a decent university but would look carefully the funding, source and controls.

I did an indepth research project in the 80s but when it didn't prove the preconceived ideas in the washington office, I was ordered to destroy the report and all of the research files. Being the Ahole I am I bundled it up and sent it to the senator that funded it and started looking for alternative employment.

 

[Formidilosus]

Out of curiosity, if you wanted to make an informed opinion based on sound science, where would you accept that information from?

Wasn’t asked of me, but I don’t trust any of it. There are peer reviewed papers that I was involved in, and I would and do tell people to not trust that either- biasing legit research is easy as hell. The amount of digging and verifying that has to be done on every paper and project is numbing.

“Science” and “research” isn’t science and research anymore- maybe never was, it’s science and research. It’s based on who’s funding and who’s idea is in jeopardy. There is zero money to be made and zero funding for further research to find out that lead cored bullets are not a real concern to animals so or wildlife, and aren’t the thing to be gone after. There is a shit load of money and funding for further research to say “the data suggests”. Anyone that has done legit research knows that almost without exception, if your project might lead to an unpopular finding, the odds of it getting funded are low.

 

[Pony Soldier]

I agree! Peer reviewed just means you got a friend to sign off on it. I have found a lot of peer reviewed stuff that was just garbage. Phds don't mean much any more. Most will publish whatever pays. Twentyfive years working at a university taught me only the students were trustworthy. As my thesis advisor told me - most faculty need to be in a prison or a mental hospital - its just cheaper to keep them at a university.

 

[tpicou]

Yeah research is certainly going downhill. Especially considering people have terrible sample sizes these days. I was reading a biophys paper the other day that only looked at 5 samples and legit lmao’d. Like, an n of 3-5 is great in the lab when you’re just trying to make progress but don’t publish stuff unless you’ve got adequate data.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Every deer I have shot with copper pencils through. This was the latest, Nov 8th 2023 on a 150# blacktail. 7mm Rem Mag, 217 yards with a Barnes LRX 139 going about 2,800 fps and 2,400# of energy.

We just need a copper that acts like a lead and blows apart to make a 5"-7" wound channel.
View attachment 682114

How far did the deer go after that shot? Looks like the exit side of a liver with lung damage show as well? Apologies if I am misidentifying the anatomy part.

 

[wyosam]

A masters program at a decent university but would look carefully the funding, source and controls.

I did an indepth research project in the 80s but when it didn't prove the preconceived ideas in the washington office, I was ordered to destroy the report and all of the research files. Being the Ahole I am I bundled it up and sent it to the senator that funded it and started looking for alternative employment.

I’d be amazed if there is a study out there that would pass your muster- any study is going to get funding from the most local, and likely several other large raptor centers. I would assume those will be red flags for you- that is not unreasonable. The studies all tend to support their mission. If someone wants to pay for a study to try to show that all the others are skewed, they certainly could. NRA maybe? Major bullet manufacturers? Other hunting/gun rights groups? Get out there and ask those groups to do it. I’m assuming NRA fought CA’s ban on lead for hunting. Why wouldn’t they pay for studies to be done that might contradict the published studies?

I don’t care what people hunt with- I sure don’t want to see lead projectiles banned altogether (I shoot A LOT, 99% of which isn’t at game, and is lead or jacketed lead).

The arguments about appeasing “antis” are foolish. In any argument affected by politics, convincing those strongly for or strongly against whatever it is should never be the goal. Those minds aren’t changing anyway. The people who don’t yet have a reason to give a shit are the only minds that can be changed.


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[Pony Soldier]

Since most of the raptors are migratory, trying to establish a reliable baseline will be a challenge. Then staying with it long enough to document change or impact is a lot of funding and more time that even grad students have. The difficulty next is related to hunting pressure and game concentrations ( number of gut piles).

I think the most reasonable organization would be a long term study in multiple locations by fish and game agencies. That's a lot of attention span for an agency that can barely get their game biologists into the field ( Montana). I see their water wizards in the field but have never seen a big game biologist in the field on a project.

 

[2-Stix]

How far did the deer go after that shot? Looks like the exit side of a liver with lung damage show as well? Apologies if I am misidentifying the anatomy part.

I would say this one went about 40 yards. Yes liver and lungs damage.

Every animal I have shot with copper (6 total) has ran 20-40 yards. No bang flop. I have blow up 2 hearts, 3 double lungs and 1 gut shot.

My cousin is my hunting partner and he runs lead ammo and I watch his kill go bang flop.

I have a friend that lost 2 big bucks in AZ. 1.5" of fat, pencils through and the wound closes up and they cant track the buck.

 

[Igloo]

I've spent a lot of time shooting deer with 30-06s and 308s before moving to smaller, and the only "bang-flops" I've consistently seen were CNS hits like high shoulder.

When you see spike bucks run almost 100 yards leaving big ol blood trails, pieces of bone floating in puddles and have a sizeable chunk of their heart gone from a 165gr Federal Fusion and similar, it makes the 20-40 yard death runs you're talkin about from monos sound real average to be honest.

Experience with the magnums is limited here...but still saw runners, they were not all straight down.

 

[Balderdash]

Switching to lead free in an attempt to placate anti hunters so that they'll leave hunting alone is seriously flawed logic.

A few here have substantiated their opinions by posting links to studies; others drone on with sanctimonious statements. It's reminiscent of the great mask/shot debate we all went through several years back. As with everything, there's always going to be virtue signaling.

I've read a fair amount of research on this subject over the years. I haven't been able to dredge up anything that approaches definitive; but I'll hapily read anything someone posts a link to.

To me, the bottom line is that Condors in all copper areas still have lead in their systems, as do raptors and other predators. Similarly, a good friend of mine was diagnosed with high lead levels in his system. Switched to all copper bullets and steal shot. Got rid of all the lead sinkers on his boat. Wouldn't eat game taken by others. Eventhough he lived in a newer house, he drank only bottled water. He started taking sauna sessions to get heavy metals out of his system. After several years, his levels haven't changed much, and though they have theories, they haven't been able to figure out why.

There's a lot of conjecture out there on bioavailability of certain forms if one wants to go down that rabbit hole.

 

[MattB]

To me, the bottom line is that Condors in all copper areas still have lead in their systems, as do raptors and other predators.

I saw someone speed on the highway yesterday.

Assuming 100% compliance with an unpopular and lightly enforced regulation in a state that has a law which makes purchasing specialty ammunition difficult as “the bottom line” on the issue is questionable reasoning.

 

[Balderdash]

I saw someone speed on the highway yesterday.

Assuming 100% compliance with an unpopular and lightly enforced regulation in a state that has a law which makes purchasing specialty ammunition difficult as “the bottom line” on the issue is questionable reasoning.

Good point. A definitive statement such as "Bottom line" was a poor choice of words for stating a general sense of something.

Presumably, more hunters now use lead free bullets than at any point in history; as such, if lead in gut piles is the major contributer to lead levels in scavengers, wouldn't it be logical to conclude that these numbers should be dropping overall? I read recently that lead levels and comorbidity in Condors has actually been rising recently.