might get laughed at but thats ok....handgun for Griz

[CTobias]

Rowland 460.

250 Grain hard cast.

 

[Beendare]

Guessing you didn't listen to the podcast?

Spray basically worked the first time. Bear still knocked him down but left really quickly. He just crossed paths with the bear the second time out of shear bad luck.

True, we can armchair QB this to death......

My point is...one shot with the spray and done.

I was on Baranoff Island when an Outward bound group of teens was attacked....they sprayed the bear, he left....then came back angrier than ever and chewed up a kid. This double attack is not unique.

Maybe they should put that on the can, "Spray works once MAYBE...but then you are left defense less"

 

[brocksw]

G20 with 200 gr beartooth Hardcast. Widest meplat I could find in a Hardcast. Great guy who makes em based out of Idaho I believe.

14.2 gr of no. 9 and starline brass.

Swapped the factory barrel for KKm factory length and 22# recoil spring with a SS guide rod.



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[jmden]

G20 with 200 gr beartooth Hardcast. Widest meplat I could find in a Hardcast. Great guy who makes em based out of Idaho I believe.

14.2 gr of no. 9 and starline brass.

Swapped the factory barrel for KKm factory length and 22# recoil spring with a SS guide rod.



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brocksw,

I've got a G40 with 6" KKM match barrel, Jentra SS guide rod and put a 24 lb Wolff spring in. What MVs are you getting out of your G20? Looks like AA No. 9 is a bit slower that Longshot, which I've been using: https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf
I've never worked with No. 9. Any issues with it? Pretty temp sensitive, I'm guessing? I would like more powder in the case than Longshot is allowing me before pressuring out. I'd appreciate any info on working with No. 9 you may have.

I've run the 200g Beartooth up to right at 1400fps with no issues as of yet, but am still in load development with Sig brass and have some DT brass coming. Have a couple hundred DT 200g hardcast coming as I've been told that DT specifically designed these for the 10mm auto, but they do have a smaller meplat. Perhaps the trade off is more reliable cycling?

 

[brocksw]

brocksw,

I've got a G40 with 6" KKM match barrel, Jentra SS guide rod and put a 24 lb Wolff spring in. What MVs are you getting out of your G20? Looks like AA No. 9 is a bit slower that Longshot, which I've been using: https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf
I've never worked with No. 9. Any issues with it? Pretty temp sensitive, I'm guessing? I would like more powder in the case than Longshot is allowing me before pressuring out. I'd appreciate any info on working with No. 9 you may have.

I've run the 200g Beartooth up to right at 1400fps with no issues as of yet, but am still in load development with Sig brass and have some DT brass coming. Have a couple hundred DT 200g hardcast coming as I've been told that DT specifically designed these for the 10mm auto, but they do have a smaller meplat. Perhaps the trade off is more reliable cycling?

I havent really pushed hard enough to see pressure signs. 14.2 was as hot as I went. I didn't shoot through my chrono but I'm going to guess I'm around 1200 to 1250 and to be honest I don't think more no. 9 would get much more with that barrel length. 14.2 is well over max. I'm actually gonna chrono this summer and then back off a little and see what I lose because I have a feeling I could drop down to 13.5 or 13.8 or so and not lose much if anything at all.

I have a buddy with a G40 that tried no 7 and blue dot and he didnt see any real gains in velocity and said the blue dot wasnt burning up and resulted in lots of powder residue. I believe he's still using no. 9 as well.

I've cycled lots of rounds through that KKm barrel because I was concerned about the tighter tolerances... Not so much the wider meplat. I have yet to have an issue. I read that DT essentially tried copying the beartooth design, not sure if it's true or not.

The only cycling issues I had was when I was running my range loads with the factory 17 lb spring. I'd get a failure to return to battery once in a while. I started running that 22# and haven't seen that problem surface again. Also, I usually switch back to the Glock barrel when I'm shooting jacketed bullets at the range to avoid welding lead into my KKm.

That's about as much help as I can offer.

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[jmden]

I havent really pushed hard enough to see pressure signs. 14.2 was as hot as I went. I didn't shoot through my chrono but I'm going to guess I'm around 1200 to 1250 and to be honest I don't think more no. 9 would get much more with that barrel length. 14.2 is well over max. I'm actually gonna chrono this summer and then back off a little and see what I lose because I have a feeling I could drop down to 13.5 or 13.8 or so and not lose much if anything at all.

I have a buddy with a G40 that tried no 7 and blue dot and he didnt see any real gains in velocity and said the blue dot wasnt burning up and resulted in lots of powder residue. I believe he's still using no. 9 as well.

I've cycled lots of rounds through that KKm barrel because I was concerned about the tighter tolerances... Not so much the wider meplat. I have yet to have an issue. I read that DT essentially tried copying the beartooth design, not sure if it's true or not.

The only cycling issues I had was when I was running my range loads with the factory 17 lb spring. I'd get a failure to return to battery once in a while. I started running that 22# and haven't seen that problem surface again. Also, I usually switch back to the Glock barrel when I'm shooting jacketed bullets at the range to avoid welding lead into my KKm.

That's about as much help as I can offer.

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OK. Thanks. Hmm...maybe I should just stick with Longshot. It's working fine so far.

 

[Kevin Dill]

One interesting thing I note almost every time in these discussions: Many of us get into the technicalities of projectiles, velocities, ballistics, performance and so on when it comes to guns. I have done it. I hardly ever see anyone discuss how they obsessively shoot those loads and weapons at incoming/moving targets about to pounce on them...with the goal being dependable tight accuracy under extreme stress. The point is, we're often doing what we can to create an effective weapon but not working hard enough at being deadly proficient with it against a 500 pound angry bear. Carrying a sidearm makes a lot of us feel better, but my strong suspicion is a majority of people packing a sidearm have no well-developed skill set centered around accurately taking down an attacking grizzly. The honest truth I believe is that most of us hope to avoid an attack and...if one happens...get lucky if we need to shoot. I think a sidearm should be more than a chunk of feel-good bling on my hip belt. My reality is that a bear bursting from cover and running down on me probably has the overwhelming advantage. Since I can't practice that (including getting knocked down and wallowed) all I can do is imagine what I'd do....and we all know that's not a real strategy.

Spray: I think it works. Sometimes. I try not to be either too negative or naïve about bear spray. Sometime I need to tell you about the huge blonde grizzly that interrupted my lunch....

 

[NDGuy]

Sometimes. I try not to be either too negative or naïve about bear spray. Sometime I need to tell you about the huge blonde grizzly that interrupted my lunch....

Sometimes I am surprised there aren't more people on the forum with predator encounters where they had to use spray or a weapon, I have only seen a handful of people post about it.

 

[jmden]

One interesting thing I note almost every time in these discussions: Many of us get into the technicalities of projectiles, velocities, ballistics, performance and so on when it comes to guns. I have done it. I hardly ever see anyone discuss how they obsessively shoot those loads and weapons at incoming/moving targets about to pounce on them...with the goal being dependable tight accuracy under extreme stress. The point is, we're often doing what we can to create an effective weapon but not working hard enough at being deadly proficient with it against a 500 pound angry bear. Carrying a sidearm makes a lot of us feel better, but my strong suspicion is a majority of people packing a sidearm have no well-developed skill set centered around accurately taking down an attacking grizzly. The honest truth I believe is that most of us hope to avoid an attack and...if one happens...get lucky if we need to shoot. I think a sidearm should be more than a chunk of feel-good bling on my hip belt. My reality is that a bear bursting from cover and running down on me probably has the overwhelming advantage. Since I can't practice that (including getting knocked down and wallowed) all I can do is imagine what I'd do....and we all know that's not a real strategy.

Spray: I think it works. Sometimes. I try not to be either too negative or naïve about bear spray. Sometime I need to tell you about the huge blonde grizzly that interrupted my lunch....

Good points. That's why I'm working with a 10mm I will use in comps and am working on a moving/charging target setup using grizzly bear paper targets that are in the mail as we speak. Don't want to be someone who hasn't practiced alot with the sidearm of choice. Besides the practice is fun and it's enjoyable to work up a load that really does what you have in mind!

 

[Beendare]

Sometimes I am surprised there aren't more people on the forum with predator encounters where they had to use spray or a weapon, I have only seen a handful of people post about it.

Makes sense to me they don't when you consider what you have to go through.

A few buddies shot a Grizz in their camp on the AK peninsula many years ago. They told the G&F. The wardens brought them into the G&F office and grilled them each individually to cross check their story. Then after 6 hours they said, cancel your flights we are flying out to the scene. The wardens skinned the bear and thankfully there were zero shots in its hind end...and the story was as they said. So one day later they were given a stern warning....and they left.

Most guys I know that hunt have heard a similar story. I'm not recommending not reporting an incident.....but I can understand why there are so few.

Same goes for Defense by gun in the US. A Harvard prof reported 158,000 people a year...based on police reports. But then 2 other studies...one by the CDC come up with millions. WTH???????
Folks just don't want to go through the hassle of reporting this stuff.[ref; wiki, "Defensive use of guns"]

 

[jorgensen.travis]

One interesting thing I note almost every time in these discussions: Many of us get into the technicalities of projectiles, velocities, ballistics, performance and so on when it comes to guns. I have done it. I hardly ever see anyone discuss how they obsessively shoot those loads and weapons at incoming/moving targets about to pounce on them...with the goal being dependable tight accuracy under extreme stress. The point is, we're often doing what we can to create an effective weapon but not working hard enough at being deadly proficient with it against a 500 pound angry bear. Carrying a sidearm makes a lot of us feel better, but my strong suspicion is a majority of people packing a sidearm have no well-developed skill set centered around accurately taking down an attacking grizzly. The honest truth I believe is that most of us hope to avoid an attack and...if one happens...get lucky if we need to shoot. I think a sidearm should be more than a chunk of feel-good bling on my hip belt. My reality is that a bear bursting from cover and running down on me probably has the overwhelming advantage. Since I can't practice that (including getting knocked down and wallowed) all I can do is imagine what I'd do....and we all know that's not a real strategy.

Spray: I think it works. Sometimes. I try not to be either too negative or naïve about bear spray. Sometime I need to tell you about the huge blonde grizzly that interrupted my lunch....

The question is about which handgun for grizzly. Not how to train for grizzly.


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[Kevin Dill]

The question is about which handgun for grizzly. Not how to train for grizzly.


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It certainly is. But the actual gun is only one slice of the pie involving bear defense. Correct ammo is just as important. None of it matters if the accuracy (read that as 'good shooting under extreme stress') isn't there. Shouldn't one's ability to accurately smack an incoming bruin have an impact on what sidearm he's toting? It's a circular discussion if the intent is to really stop or kill a nasty bear.

 

[boom]

we dont think a magnum gunshot..the noise alone wont frighten a bear?

i ask cuz i dont know, nor hope to find out. that bear charge on the FredEichler video is about the best one out there. the handgun report sent bear-mama back into the willows.

 

[boom]

and why do all the videos have the guy saying "hey bear, hey bear...."?

 

[Mike7]

It certainly is. But the actual gun is only one slice of the pie involving bear defense. Correct ammo is just as important. None of it matters if the accuracy (read that as 'good shooting under extreme stress') isn't there. Shouldn't one's ability to accurately smack an incoming bruin have an impact on what sidearm he's toting? It's a circular discussion if the intent is to really stop or kill a nasty bear.

I wonder if a little "too much" is made of this shooting under distress phenomenon possibly? To me it seems as though the human mind/body is hardwired to deal with just this kind of threat. This is where the primitive brain is at its best...singular focus on an immediate threat with everything else being blocked out. It's where people get tunnel vision, extreme focus, and things seem to slow down. That is perfect for someone with a pistol to defend themself from a single threat that requires one simple response in order to be neutralized (assuming you have some basic proficiency with the pistol, the pistol is in a simple easy to draw from holster and doesn't have a bunch of external safeties, and you have the appropriate ammunition).

Someone in law enforcement can correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that all of the training in law enforcement and the military is conditioning and repitition in order to allow you to focus all while your higher brain continues to function as well and makes determinations like good guy v.s. bad guy, when to move to cover, complex behaviors like moving and firing simultaneously, awareness of surroundings and potential collateral damage, etc.

I am not a great shot at all, but feel pretty confident based upon my life experiences (including but not limited to a run-in once with a female black bear with really young cubs and a charging lion once) that I would have a very high likelihood of firing accurately at a charging grizzly...much more accurate likely than when distracted by friends trying to make me laugh while shooting sporting clays, etc.

 

[Mike7]

But everyone reacts differently under stress I suppose. Some people do freeze or "feak out" when exposed to certain stressors. But I think that is mostly when they are presented with something that is foreign to them....something that their mind can not fathom. If you are not one of those people typically and you have some basic knowledge about the threat and a basic plan ahead of time of how the threat might be dealt with, then instead of freaking out, I think you will probably become very focused...followed of course by shakes, excietment, etc. from the flight or fight chemical response, which becomes particularly noticeable once the threat has passed.

 

[Beendare]

But everyone reacts differently under stress I suppose. Some people do freeze or "feak out" when exposed to certain stressors. .

^ yes, thats exactly what happens when you don't train with something, you cannot expect to react properly......glad you corrected your other post.

Kevins post above is right on the money......"he asked about pistols".......sure, but I totally agree with him that, it ain't the bow...its the Indian. and the science behind the ammo is there for all to see.

By the way, a good book for you, "On Combat" by Christensen & ?....[hat tip to Mez!]....fascinating book that is the Bible for military, and Law enforcement Training.

 

[Kevin Dill]

Certainly the loud concussive blast of a handgun can possibly dissuade a bear bent on trouble. On the flip side, I've heard and read plenty of accounts of bears not paying the least attention to multiple blasts and much noise. On balance I think the big bang is a definite positive.

I wish someone would invent a 2 shot pistol that fired a shell which put off a big flash, huge loud blast, and a charge of pepper. "Get outta here bear!"

 

[Mike7]

I will check the book out, and am sure that I will find it interesting. Thanks.

I still think a little too much fear is placed into this shooting a pistol at short distance under distress being this hard to obtain skill. Shooting a pistol at something at 7 yards when not under stress is certainly not a very complex skill. Most people on here participate in much harder to obtain skills like archery and long range shooting, and they do them under stress and with more distractions. If a bear is charging me, there is no distraction. It has my full focus. So why the excessive fear about this skill which should require little higher level brain functioning?

I would be more concerned about making sure that I had a simple pistol without external safeties, and which is always with me and quickly accessible.

And no one here is training with a bear actually charging them, so I guess that everyone is screwed if that kind of training is required in order to react to a stressful encounter appropriately.

So, I guess my point is that I don't think you have to have a bear charge you to react appropriately, and furthermore, I don't think that everyone even needs to shoot barrels sliding down cables coming at them in order to even react appropriately...even though it would be a lot of fun doing that.

Everyone that I know (and the vast majority of people in the studies) that have shot at a charging bear, did so accurately enough to get the job done and with a large variation of weapons and training levels.

Maybe some people need extra training in order to increase their confidence in their ability and so hopefully decrease their internal stress during an external stressor that will be the same regardless (a stressor which will the first and probably only time they are ever put in that situation). But I think being confident in yourself along with basic pistol proficiency and having thought through things mentally, will have you being better prepared than the vast majority of people out there.

 

[jorgensen.travis]

It was an interesting conversation about the science behind the ammo, with solid advice. If this was a discussion on Elk calibers, and I came in telling everyone they need to practice shooting more and not worry about the caliber, I would come off condescending. The fact that it takes practice to do something effectively is just pointing out the obvious. If you’re spending endless hours preparing for a bear charge that will likely never happen, you just might be the paranoid nervous type that will freeze up when it happens.


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