Meateater: Ashby and Rinella

[LostArra]

I don't listen to many Meateater podcasts as it's drifted away from actual hunting that I'm interested in but this new one caught my attention.

Takeaways:
Mr Ashby is an absolute hunting arrow evangelist! I could see him pounding a 650 grain arrow on the Bible. He's even got a list that sounds like the 12 commandments of hunting arrows. He's entertaining.

Rinella was a bit out of his league on archery details. His sidekick, Janis, probably should have handled this interview.

 

[MT257]

Agreed. I feel Steve felt annoyed with Ashby during the interview and think Janis should have done more of the talking as he seemed to research the selected topics more.

 

[540-Virginian]

Janis hung out with The Hunting Public and took a swig of the Ranch Fairy Kool-Aid and then Ashby is on the show...

But, agree it was a good podcast and Dr. Ashby is very knowledgeable - I like Ashby. It was nice to hear from Ashby in detail and get a better understanding of how he approaches the research, how it's changed, what's stayed the same, etc. I like how he kept saying he had more questions the further he researched; that is a sign of a good researcher in my opinion.

Janis clearly chose Ashby as the guest as he was giddy the whole episode. Steve in general is not in love with bowhunting (he's mentioned this on shows before) as he wants meat and the rifle is the most efficient for him. So, Steve clearly wasn't as geeked out on this episode as he is with others.

I wish they'd bring the counterargument on addressing why the Ashby/RF/EFOC/Heavy Arrow isn't a one-and-done setup for everyone. From listening to Ashby on this podcast, he didn't seem to talk about hunting game like whitetail or pronghorn. Sounded like he was hunting a lot of big African animals, and pigs in Texas, all of which seemed to be within 15 yards shooting distance.

Also, I never realized the Doc is an Ophthalmologist. Although he's smart, and I'm not dissing Optomologists, but I had assumed he had a Doctorate in physics or something. I have a Master's in Science in Human Development, but that doesn't mean I could research neurological disorders as well as a Psychology PhD or a Neurology MD could. It's kind of like having a two-year degree in Respiratory Therapy and claiming you know everything about bowhunting...

 

[Runningwater]

Mr. Ashby is entertaining and knowledgeable about archery hunting, but I'd take a lot of his stuff with a grain of salt. I also don't love the "Dr" title being thrown around when he's espousing opinions on arrows and broadheads.

 

[540-Virginian]

Mr. Ashby is entertaining and knowledgeable about archery hunting, but I'd take a lot of his stuff with a grain of salt. I also don't love the "Dr" title being thrown around when he's espousing opinions on arrows and broadheads.

Agree, using the Dr. in your name when talking about hunting arrow research was misleading to me.

 

[LostArra]

Doctor or not, many people who are experts in one field feel free to transfer that "expertise" to any area they please (see Covid stats, vaccines, investing, economy, you name it).
That's not to say Ashby doesn't know a LOT about arrows but that's due to his work, not his degree.

 

[summs]

I felt the opposite, I felt that Ashby came off as snobby. Every time Steve mentioned something to Ashby to help, Ashby would reply, "haha yeah". The sous vide beef blood (surprised his partner at grizzly stick), contact to rigor mortis expert, etc...

Ashby also said a heavier object is harder to stop, which is not always true, in a class A CDL test a question is which would stop sooner? A. An unloaded truck at 25,000lbs or B. max loaded truck at 80,000lbs. The answer is max loaded truck stops sooner. I assume a lighter arrow probably does go further to, but at what range is that no longer useful? 80 yards.

I agree with @540-Virginian , should have probed him about broad range. Which really comes down to use quality equipment. Don't cheap out on the part that hits the animal. Quality broadhead, good arrow.

I like Ashby's work and idea's. A lot of it makes sense. I use a 515 grain arrow, 100 grains up front, 33" arrows at 11.5gpi. Which gives me better penetration than a 525 grain arrow, with 200 grains up front (100 tip/100insert) and 32" arrow at 9.5gpi. Which in Ashby's theory would perform better.

Both of these people are doing more for conservation and the sport to improve the best quality of land and ethics they can provide. Which is a win win in my book.

 

[rodney482]

It was entertaining

 

[Beendare]

Ashby has been around for decades.

Few know he wrote a white paper many years ago claiming high FOC arrows fly further. The physics guys asked for his data proving how He could alter the laws of physics.

It turns out he wasnt Using a bow at all. He was using rubber bands and weghted soda straws to prove his theory. He still uses the demonstration in his seminars which is misleading.

..

 

[laltaffer]

The problem with Ashby’s work is that it’s both accurate and inaccurate at the same time. He applies a lot from stick bow hunts to compounds. But if you read his work he didn’t test that. Interviews with him never ask the hard questions that poke holes in what he is saying. It’s not that he’s out right lying, he’s not at all. But it’s very misleading too. Saying a heavier arrow has a flatter trajectory may be true but if shot out of the same bow as a lighter (while not super light) arrow it also won’t go as far if shot at the same angle. And to get it to go as far means pointing it up much higher which changes the arc. But he didn’t bother to actually explain what he was talking about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[540-Virginian]

Doctor or not, many people who are experts in one field feel free to transfer that "expertise" to any area they please (see Covid stats, vaccines, investing, economy, you name it).
That's not to say Ashby doesn't know a LOT about arrows but that's due to his work, not his degree.

Taking from Beendare's comment: "Few know he wrote a white paper many years ago claiming high FOC arrows fly further. The physics guys asked for his data proving how He could alter the laws of physics."

This is what I mean. He's an eye doctor, not a doctor in physics. Are an electrician and plumber the same? Both deal with the inner workings of a house, and some skills make transfer... but there is stuff about plumbing an electrician would never know and vice versa.

 

[540-Virginian]

I felt the opposite, I felt that Ashby came off as snobby.

Eh, sounded to me more like an old man set in his ways lol. He was a preacher for sure.

 

[HUNT.HARD.82]

As a guy that's got back into archery about 2 years ago the FOC deal gets confusing. iv asked people at the pro shops and other well known hunters that are successful with big game year after year and they seem to say the same thing. they have no idea what there FOC is and don't really care all they care about is a quality broadhead and shot placement.

 

[Nick Muche]

The day I wake up and worry about how much or how little my arrow weighs is the day I stop bowhunting.

 

[JakeSCH]

I felt the opposite, I felt that Ashby came off as snobby. Every time Steve mentioned something to Ashby to help, Ashby would reply, "haha yeah". The sous vide beef blood (surprised his partner at grizzly stick), contact to rigor mortis expert, etc...

Ashby also said a heavier object is harder to stop, which is not always true, in a class A CDL test a question is which would stop sooner? A. An unloaded truck at 25,000lbs or B. max loaded truck at 80,000lbs. The answer is max loaded truck stops sooner. I assume a lighter arrow probably does go further to, but at what range is that no longer useful? 80 yards.

I agree with @540-Virginian , should have probed him about broad range. Which really comes down to use quality equipment. Don't cheap out on the part that hits the animal. Quality broadhead, good arrow.

I like Ashby's work and idea's. A lot of it makes sense. I use a 515 grain arrow, 100 grains up front, 33" arrows at 11.5gpi. Which gives me better penetration than a 525 grain arrow, with 200 grains up front (100 tip/100insert) and 32" arrow at 9.5gpi. Which in Ashby's theory would perform better.

Both of these people are doing more for conservation and the sport to improve the best quality of land and ethics they can provide. Which is a win win in my book.

Haven't finished listening to the episode yet...but just a comment on your truck analogy. A fully loaded truck may stop sooner, but it will be much harder on the brakes and tires to do so. At the end of the day more force is required to stop something with higher momentum.

Also, he stated that the #1 important item for penetration is structural integrity. The 12 steps are in order of importance...I would bet that the arrow setup that you use (w/ 11.5 gpi) has more structural integrity than the option using the 9.5gpi.

I could easily see increasing FOC having an inverse impact on structural integrity if not done "properly"

 

[Kularrow]

This podcast is helpful if you drew your White Rhino tag in Montana in 1983.

 

[JCohHTX]

At least this wasn't another social justice topic where I couldn't finish the episode. I was happy to see something purely hunting related.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

This episode on a hunting specific topic was at least a welcome break from the general interest variety show that now typifies the Meateater podcast.

Ashby is a mixed bag to be taken with a grain of salt. I respect his curiosity and desire to understand the finer points of killing things with fine points, but he often states his conclusions with unwarranted numerical certainty (e.g., "if you increase FOC by X% you will get Y% more penetration") and ignores the accuracy benefit afforded by the flatter trajectory of a lighter arrow.

 

[wapitibob]

As a guy that's got back into archery about 2 years ago the FOC deal gets confusing. iv asked people at the pro shops and other well known hunters that are successful with big game year after year and they seem to say the same thing. they have no idea what there FOC is and don't really care all they care about is a quality broadhead and shot placement.

yep

 

[Scorpion]

Ashby can be entertaining but I take much of what he speaks about with a grain of salt. I’ve got an engineering degree and a lot of his opinions would not hold up to hard numerical evaluation.