Maximizing the structural integrity of an arrow

[DavePwns]

I want to improve my arrow set up quality and reduce risk of arrow breakoff and improve penetration. I realize that when an arrow breaks inside an animal, the momentum is no longer in a linear direction, thus reducing penetration. What are some of the best arrow shafts, inserts, glues ect. to improve the stoutness of my hunting arrows?? Also is there any evidence showing that increasing FOC increasing the arrows structural integrity?

I am currently using 300 spine 5mm FMJs with regular inserts set up at bass pro shop and I am not happy with how often they break.

 

[alaskanparret]

I shoot the deep six FMJ’s in a 330 spine. Shot a black bear at 16 years. Arrow got bent but didn’t break. Another bear shot at the same distance was shot with 400 spine deep sixes and it broke, but still had a complete pass through on the bear.

My 330’s are set up with a stainless steel insert in the end and I have a total arrow weight around 565 grains. Hits hard and punches through a lot! I’ll continue to shoot the FMJ’s.

Some talk has been mentioned about the quality of FMJ’s at say Bass Pro ship compared to your local archery shop. Don’t know if there is any weight to this however just a thought.

Pretty much everyone I know hunting here in Alaska is shooting FMJ’s or VAP’s. The guys shooting VAP’s seem to also be switching to FMJ’s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[dkime]

I want to improve my arrow set up quality and reduce risk of arrow breakoff and improve penetration. I realize that when an arrow breaks inside an animal, the momentum is no longer in a linear direction, thus reducing penetration. What are some of the best arrow shafts, inserts, glues ect. to improve the stoutness of my hunting arrows?? Also is there any evidence showing that increasing FOC increasing the arrows structural integrity?

I am currently using 300 spine 5mm FMJs with regular inserts set up at bass pro shop and I am not happy with how often they break.

This is very interesting, can you elaborate more on the types of failures you have seen with FMJ's? They have a reputation for bending but I haven't heard much about arrow shafts breaking. Also what broadheads are they wearing?

I'm going to take this as an opportunity to go down the rabbit hole a bit and answer your question in the long way, but if you want a short answer. Yes there are a few different ways to strengthen a shaft through various components. The easiest method would probably be utilizing a center pin system similar to the Valkyrie System.

You can go crazy with this if you want and also "foot" your current shafts with an arrow that has an inner diameter that is only a few thousandths of an inch larger than the outer diameter of your FMJ and glue it in place. Inversely, Firenock makes a product called CTI which essentially foots the inside of your FMJ (?Not sure they make it in this size) in a similar fashion. These products also manipulate the spine of your arrow shaft by essentially making the footed section of you arrow behave like an arrow with a stiffer spine. Check out the section of the arrow dynamics article on the homepage that talks about increasing spine ratings to achieve a better tune. It highlights briefly how arrows with stiffer spines also have thicker walls. (Sometimes)

I think we would probably need some examples of what sort of failures you're seeing to get an idea of what is going on. A 300 spine FMJ is no slouch of an arrow. A few other things that are super important but not really taken into consideration is the concentricity of the point to an arrow shaft. As a broadhead enters it's target it is using the force generated by the bow and the mechanical advantage of the wedge that is the broadhead to create a wound channel. In a perfect world where that target is completely homogenous and that broadhead is concentric to the shaft, those forces are distributed evenly. But we don't live there, so what happens is as the arrow hits the target, the target is also acting back on the arrow, this collision flexes the arrow as it continues to drive through the target. If we don't have a broadhead that is completely concentric, meaning the wedge is off center of the arrows axis, the forces as it penetrates are no longer equal. So the shaft flexes more, robbing you of penetration and sometimes snapping the arrow shaft off.


In terms of FOC, I'm going to go out on a limb here and tell you that no. FOC alone will not help you with structural integrity. A high FOC arrow that is properly tuned to your setup though can definitely improve your penetration with the right broadhead. There's a lot to take into consideration here, and I don't want to offer a blanket answer and give you the wrong impression.

 

[DavePwns]

I plan on switching to a 125 g 2 blade broadhead either bishop scientific method or iron will AND adding 50-75 grain insert. I was using a 100 grain muzzy 3 blade. My first arrow failure was when I was tuning my bow to my broadheads and accidently shot at the wrong yardage and hit a stump, the broadhead was stuck in the tree and the arrow shaft broke off right at the end near the broadhead. Furthermore, with just regular broadhead shooting into foam I had 2 arrows start to split right at the insert. Also, I was this year on my first elk, I had a broadside shot, hit the left lung but the arrow snapped in half and went through the bulls spinal muscles. The bull was unable to run far so I took 2 more lung shots, of which only one arrow made it through without breaking. And just FYI I always paper tune my 68 lb prime rival and do my best to ensure I am shooting darts with little wobble. I like the idea of footing the shaft, as I am wanting more weight to my arrow anyways to maximize momentum/penetration. Anything I can do to make my arrow set up as stout and accurate as possible. I have yet to loose an animal and I want to do anything I can to reduce the odds of that happening.

 

[bmart2622]

I am planning on switching to the Valkyrie System to increase arrow durability and hopefully eliminate failures

 

[Kilboars]

I'm switching over to these.

Gold Tip - Kinetic Pierce Platinum Series Hunting Arrows

 

[5MilesBack]

I really wanted to like FMJ's, but haven't been a fan of them. Just too fragile IMO. Even my GT Kinetic XT 200's will snap in half pretty easily. I would love to find an arrow that is "weaved carbon" like my old Trophy Ridge Crush arrows in a .250 or stiffer spine. Those arrows in a .300 were the absolute toughest arrows I've ever shot. I hit the back end of one at 20 yards and all it did was put a small dent in the carbon after blowing the nock to smithereens. I've done that with my GT's and they will umbrella all the way to the point.

 

[dkime]

I'm switching over to these.

Gold Tip - Kinetic Pierce Platinum Series Hunting Arrows

Great shaft, not so great components depending on your target material. I have 3 dozen of them down stairs split up between field arrows and hunting shafts. After 1 season, I was struggling with getting a tune this year. Eventually I placed them on a spinner and used a dial indicator to test for runout. The best case scenario was .015" of runout on the ID of the outsert, my guess is just through shooting them they eventually start to yield and bend a little bit. No big deal if you're okay with replacing the outsert portion every now and then. I think Lancaster sells them for 2$ a piece.

 

[PathFinder]

I went down this road this spring and did a bunch of destructive testing. Not a collection of "once upon a time I saw my buddy's arrow do this..." but direct head to head testing.
To summarize it, the only 100% frontal impact proof component system I tested was the Valkyrie system. Some got ever so slightly tweaked, but none came anywhere near failure.
The only frontal impact proof arrow shaft I tested was the Zelor (now Day Six) shaft with the Valkyrie component system. The new Day Six components seem to check all the right boxes if the center pin is long enough. Haven't seen it in person yet so I can't say for sure.
Grizzly Stiks (even 170 spines) failed on the second shot, as a result of the weak inner part of their insert. The short inner section, combined with the fact that it's aluminum and drilled/tapped all the way through, resulted in failures after 1 hit; they all survived the first hit.
GoldTip's micro diameter component system looks stout, but it's entirely inadequate. You can bend the stupid inner pins with your fingers, and the outer sleeves are literally paper thin at the end.
No hidden insert types survived a single shot. The lack of footing really sets them back. They might be ok footed if you want to screw with that.
The 8-32 connection system is totally outdated and really sets a lot of great broadhead designs back. If you are dead set on shooting an 8-32 type head, the system needs a few things or something will fail. 1. The right arrow shaft. Aluminum, BTW, doesn't make them impact proof or even resistant vs carbon. It's weak, fatigues like crazy, and is far to thin to be adding any strength vs straight carbon. 2. Footing, or sleeved outsert. Should go back at least 1/4" over the shaft. Farther is better. Abowyer and VPA make footers, or you can make them yourself. 3. Center pin/support. It should extend farther into the arrow than the footing.
The only shaft/connection systems I tested that passed at all were the Grizzly Stik (survived 1 shot), Zelor w/ their outsert (always survived, but the outserts are hard to keep spinning true) and Zelors with the Valkyrie system. The differences in carbon fiber are huge! They definitely aren't all the same. The new Day Six stuff looks to solve the alignment problem of the Zelor outsert design while keeping the durable shaft composition. I'm planning to bag my X-impacts and go to those.
As far as the FOC/impact resistance goes, I was sure it was true. I tested 5 different .166 arrow shafts, all with a 20gr Al Valkyrie sleeve and 250 grain field point. The VAP, VAP TKO, and Gold Tip all snapped behind the center pin. The Carbon Injection splintered just behind the center pin. The Zelor never broke. The theory behind it is sound, but from my experience current carbon fiber shaft technology can't uphold it. The greater toughness of the Zelor shaft allowed it to absorb the impact without fracturing, even though it had more of its own mass to stop.

 

[DavePwns]

I went down this road this spring and did a bunch of destructive testing. Not a collection of "once upon a time I saw my buddy's arrow do this..." but direct head to head testing.
To summarize it, the only 100% frontal impact proof component system I tested was the Valkyrie system. Some got ever so slightly tweaked, but none came anywhere near failure.
The only frontal impact proof arrow shaft I tested was the Zelor (now Day Six) shaft with the Valkyrie component system. The new Day Six components seem to check all the right boxes if the center pin is long enough. Haven't seen it in person yet so I can't say for sure.
Grizzly Stiks (even 170 spines) failed on the second shot, as a result of the weak inner part of their insert. The short inner section, combined with the fact that it's aluminum and drilled/tapped all the way through, resulted in failures after 1 hit; they all survived the first hit.
GoldTip's micro diameter component system looks stout, but it's entirely inadequate. You can bend the stupid inner pins with your fingers, and the outer sleeves are literally paper thin at the end.
No hidden insert types survived a single shot. The lack of footing really sets them back. They might be ok footed if you want to screw with that.
The 8-32 connection system is totally outdated and really sets a lot of great broadhead designs back. If you are dead set on shooting an 8-32 type head, the system needs a few things or something will fail. 1. The right arrow shaft. Aluminum, BTW, doesn't make them impact proof or even resistant vs carbon. It's weak, fatigues like crazy, and is far to thin to be adding any strength vs straight carbon. 2. Footing, or sleeved outsert. Should go back at least 1/4" over the shaft. Farther is better. Abowyer and VPA make footers, or you can make them yourself. 3. Center pin/support. It should extend farther into the arrow than the footing.
The only shaft/connection systems I tested that passed at all were the Grizzly Stik (survived 1 shot), Zelor w/ their outsert (always survived, but the outserts are hard to keep spinning true) and Zelors with the Valkyrie system. The differences in carbon fiber are huge! They definitely aren't all the same. The new Day Six stuff looks to solve the alignment problem of the Zelor outsert design while keeping the durable shaft composition. I'm planning to bag my X-impacts and go to those.
As far as the FOC/impact resistance goes, I was sure it was true. I tested 5 different .166 arrow shafts, all with a 20gr Al Valkyrie sleeve and 250 grain field point. The VAP, VAP TKO, and Gold Tip all snapped behind the center pin. The Carbon Injection splintered just behind the center pin. The Zelor never broke. The theory behind it is sound, but from my experience current carbon fiber shaft technology can't uphold it. The greater toughness of the Zelor shaft allowed it to absorb the impact without fracturing, even though it had more of its own mass to stop.

Awesome, thanks for some great info. I'll definitely check out the day six arrow system. I want my arrows to be the .338 Lupua equivalent of archery, heavy, destructive, and "over built" to handle unexpected situations that happen in the real world of hunting.

 

[PNWGATOR]

Might reach out to bowhunter64 for his input. He posted an arrow recipe in this thread Iron Will Broadhead Review Pt 1: “Examination”

 

[Moose2367]

This is the Day Six system, they sent it to me when i asked how they were assembled.

[video=youtube;PL_ORg2HjhQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL_ORg2HjhQ[/video]

 

[bmart2622]

That looks real similar to the Valkyrie system with the exception of the threaded portion.

 

[5MilesBack]

I want my arrows to be the .338 Lupua equivalent of archery, heavy, destructive, and "over built" to handle unexpected situations that happen in the real world of hunting.

My question.......what unexpected situations have you had happen while hunting where the arrow didn't hold up? I love ruining stuff as much as the next guy.....probably even more. I've been blowing stuff up and putting stuff through the ringer since I was 5. But when I get right down to it, I have to ask myself.......how much strength and durability is enough?

I have one of those old TR Crush 300's with just a simple HIT insert and nothing else for structural integrity that I use for grouse, and it has blown through and hit rocks and gravel, and buried into the dirt and trees........and it's still fine. It has hit a T-post square on that mushroomed the FP, but the arrow is fine. I put one through both shoulder blades on a 6x6 bull with the arrow sticking out both sides.......that stayed inside him for 1.5 miles.......the arrow came out intact and fine, and I used that same arrow two seasons later to shoot another 6x6. In 2014 I shot a big bull quartering away and the arrow passed completely through and even blew through the offside humerus bone. The arrow was fine.

I guess what I'm saying is......sure, I love shooting cinder blocks and stuff like that. But is there anything in the real hunting world that comes even close to shooting cinder blocks?

Even regular Easton Axis arrows with HIT's have been fine for most all shooting situations that I might encounter. Bottom line for me is that I never worry much about breaking arrows, even if I miss a target, because it hasn't really been an issue when I choose the right thick-walled arrows.

 

[bmart2622]

It might not be an issue for you but that doesnt mean it isnt for some people, I broke 3 arrows this year that hit the dirt and one a very small sapling. I heard a podcast where Aron Snyder shot 7 whitetails on a hunt and every arrow broke....so it is an issue. I dont want to risk my hunt or my 1 potential opportunity on a bull with an arrow that wont hold up. You're right, we arent hunting cinder blocks and steel plates but if my arrow will hold up to that then I know I can count on it when shooting an animal.

 

[5MilesBack]

You're right, we arent hunting cinder blocks and steel plates but if my arrow will hold up to that then I know I can count on it when shooting an animal.

That's true......I'm just saying there are other options out there that are "good enough" that don't break on every shot or animal. Maybe even increase spine to get a tougher arrow, as long as it tunes well. Plenty of guys that still use heavy aluminum arrows that blow through everything they shoot and rarely break. Everyone makes choices......that doesn't mean they're "good" choices. Three arrows breaking from hitting dirt? Ya, my superlight thin-walled Victory HV 300's do that too, but I'd never use them for hunting.

 

[bmart2622]

Everything was "good enough" until it wasn't. I personally don't want to find out that my setup isnt good enough after a failure that costs me an elk or even worse leads to a wouned animal. So my solution is to shoot something that may seem overbuilt and can stand up to steel plates and concrete. That seems like a "good" choice.

 

[SKYNET KC]

Grizzly Stiks (even 170 spines) failed on the second shot, as a result of the weak inner part of their insert. The short inner section, combined with the fact that it's aluminum and drilled/tapped all the way through, resulted in failures after 1 hit; they all survived the first hit.

So what broke? The threaded part of the insert or the arrow? Or the entire insert itself? What adhesive did you use? Do you think it would have survived if there had been more brass weights on the back end of it to distribute the impact load?

Also, maybe I completely missed it, but what were you shooting this at?

 

[MylesH]

Has anyone done any kind of impact testing on the Day six arrows? I know BRO and garret weaver just included them in their arrow testing and it help up well to the steel plate, Just broke where the threading was inside the arrow but the shaft was fine.

 

[dkime]

An interesting question not directly related to this thread but one that I think should be asked. What part of a complete arrow build would you prefer be the most incline to fail? Something just to think about, as we eliminate certain parts of an arrow, we reveal the next weakest attribute.