Long Range Rifle Questions

[BurtonGus]

I have been looking around at 6.5 CM’s and came to another fork in the road. Would you all spend the money and get the Seekins Havak PH2 in 6.5 CM or the Tikka CTR. Price difference is $1850 be $1150. The Seekins has warranty, ability to rebarrel for $550, and is lights. Tikka has a shorter 20in barrel, a little heavier, but considerably cheaper. What are y’alls thoughts?

 

[180ls1]

I have been looking around at 6.5 CM’s and came to another fork in the road. Would you all spend the money and get the Seekins Havak PH2 in 6.5 CM or the Tikka CTR. Price difference is $1850 be $1150. The Seekins has warranty, ability to rebarrel for $550, and is lights. Tikka has a shorter 20in barrel, a little heavier, but considerably cheaper. What are y’alls thoughts?

You cant go wrong with either. I don't know what your money is worth to you but they will probably both out shoot you in the field.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I have been looking around at 6.5 CM’s and came to another fork in the road. Would you all spend the money and get the Seekins Havak PH2 in 6.5 CM or the Tikka CTR. Price difference is $1850 be $1150. The Seekins has warranty, ability to rebarrel for $550, and is lights. Tikka has a shorter 20in barrel, a little heavier, but considerably cheaper. What are y’alls thoughts?

IMO the Seekins stock feels kind of cheesy and plastic. I'm sure it could be painted and change the feel, but in that price range I would go T3X for flush mag, thread barrel, and order carbon stock.

 

[yeti12]

You’ve clearly done or had access to a lot of formal testing on these bullets. I’m not going to pretend I’ve done the same, all I can report is what I’ve seen on game animals.

One thing I do think gets missed is this: there’s bias in the “field data” because many/most of the time when a shot doesn’t go well, the animal isn’t recovered. So we’re ALL guessing about what happened in those cases. As you mentioned, at least some of the time it’s because the shot was not placed where the shooter intended. The next time I see it happen, I’ll be sure to photo the crap out of it, but I’ve seen what i previously described. That shot killed the animal, there was definitely 10-12 inches of penetration. But the bullet was highly fragmented, after impacting the knuckle of the shoulder. Massive tissue damage/fragmentation in front of and around the bone, and chunks of bone blasted all over, but much less tissue damage behind that point in the lungs. And the dang bull went several miles before he died. In that same shot again, would a piece of bullet or bone get blasted through his lungs and he tip over in 100 yards? Would a Nosler partition have dropped him? I cannot say for sure, but it’s these kinds of experiences that make me lean toward tougher bullets for moderate/close range shots. I don’t see the drawback of those bullets if a shooter isn’t setup/interested/capable of shots past 5-600 yards.

Another point: I personally prefer the wound channel created by controlled expansion bullets. I’ve seen both a lot. I like what I see with a Sierra TGK or Nosler Accubond a lot better than a Berger or ELDM. I realize the match bullets are doing far more tissue damage, which is what kills. That’s exactly why I don’t like them…if I drift my shot a little forward, or the animal is quartered away slightly, goodbye many pounds of meat. I really like to eat wild game haha.


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Here's a 6mm arc with a 106gr after going through a windshield at near point blank range. 41gr retained weight. You could shoot a elk through a multi layer composite tougher than any soft bone and still get lungs.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

IMO the Seekins stock feels kind of cheesy and plastic. I'm sure it could be painted and change the feel, but in that price range I would go T3X for flush mag, thread barrel, and order carbon stock.

The tikka CTR won’t have a flush mag, the Seekins has AICS bottom metal and there are 3 round flush mags for it.

I really like my Seekins stock, I like my tikkas too but the Seekins has a much nicer stock. I guess it’s all subjective though. I have tikkas and a Seekins, they are both great. I’m not a huge tikka CTR fan though.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I have been looking around at 6.5 CM’s and came to another fork in the road. Would you all spend the money and get the Seekins Havak PH2 in 6.5 CM or the Tikka CTR. Price difference is $1850 be $1150. The Seekins has warranty, ability to rebarrel for $550, and is lights. Tikka has a shorter 20in barrel, a little heavier, but considerably cheaper. What are y’alls thoughts?

I have a Seekins havak element in 6.5 creedmoor and it’s awesome. I also have several tikkas which are nice too. I guess if I had the cash to spend, I’d rather have a Seekins over a CTR.

 

[Seeknelk]

I have been looking around at 6.5 CM’s and came to another fork in the road. Would you all spend the money and get the Seekins Havak PH2 in 6.5 CM or the Tikka CTR. Price difference is $1850 be $1150. The Seekins has warranty, ability to rebarrel for $550, and is lights. Tikka has a shorter 20in barrel, a little heavier, but considerably cheaper. What are y’alls thoughts?

Why are you comparing the Tikka ctr? Just curious.
I'd much rather grab a T3X stainless for even less $ and weight. And make changes I see fit. Like cut to 16" and put a Rokstok on it eventually. I shoot the factory stock just fine tho.

 

[Corruptt]

Years ago I got a doe at 300yrds in the shoulder with a 260 that was the guides rifle he let me borrow for the solo hunt. The doe walked about 3 feet and fell. Exit was about a golf ball size. I would think the 6.5 would perform very similar unless there were other factors involved.

 

[Bachk]

I have a 280 ai based off a tikka action that I put together and it is a tack driver. depending on my performance gun is around .75 moa all day out to 600 yards, which is as far as I can get in a farm field nearby.

I also have a Seekins element 7 prc that I recently finished load development on. easily a .5 moa gun at the same distance. Both companies make great products, but I think i am in favor of the seekins right now. Great customer service at Seekins as well.

 

[rkcdvm]

For 500 yards I wouldn't break the bank. My son's savage walmart special was shot out to 700 the first day he had it. That was with factory ammo... He also is pretty confident in his shooting ability. The limiting factor for me when it comes to hunting is what position am I going to be able to shoot in. I've never had a opportunity to shoot prone or bench like while hunting. Your current stuff is likely fine to shoot to that distance. Good rings and scope probably help the most. While hunting, I have seen more people miss shots due to rushing the shot or forgetting to re-torque their rings and/or rail screws that season.

 

[ddowning]

I’ll throw out something that doesn’t get talked about nearly enough, yet every long range shooter has to deal with, and that’s the importance of wind drift, or more precisely wind estimation error. These two printouts are for a 140 gr Accubond out of. A 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5 PRC. There’s a MOA of difference between them in wind drift at 600 yards.

While a MOA doesn’t seem like it would matter, at that distance once your personal wind estimation error is factored in, you can’t be off by much with either cartridge. I’ve grown up shooting in the wind and I’m not great at it, but on a good day I’ll be off by 20%. Factor in rifle accuracy and that puts my shots on the ragged edge of being inside a 10” kill zone at distance with light wind - at 600 yards and a 10 mph wind it puts me over and I literally should pass on the shot with the PRC. The Creedmoor causes a few more inches of error at that distance.

People tend to shoot in good weather and hope for easy shots, but when the shot is in bad weather with difficult wind, the flatter a cartridge shoots the better.

View attachment 692959View attachment 692960

There are 2 ways to look at this. I'll outline both, and everyone can make a decision.

First, the assumptions. When I make an initial wind call for a first shot, I am reducing what the wind is actually doing down to a specific mph hold from a 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock. If the wind is at an angle, I use a wind rose (an actual modern one with correct values) to convert it to a 9:00 or 3:00 wind hold. The resolution of my wind call is going to be 1 mph (not the accuracy necessarily, I'm saying that I'm not going to guess 10.5 mph. It will be 10 mph or 11 mph) This will then get converted to a wind hold. With enough practice and memorization, this can all be done while on the gun with no chart, kestrel, phone, etc.

Now, the interesting part. In reality, it takes a massive gain in velocity and bc to really make a huge difference in wind cheating ability. I did these calcs for match shooting, but it will be similar for other scenarios. I run a 6 Dasher slow at 2800 fps with a 108 berger. I also have a 28" barreled 243 Ackley improved that pushes 115 DTACS at 3150 fps. That is a .5xx bc at 2800fps compared to a .6xx bc at 3150 fps. When I did the calcs, the typical target size in a prs match was 2 moa. At 1000 yards, if you throw out all other variables, a wind call that is off by 1mph will still hit the target with both cartridges. A wind call that is off 2 mph is going to miss with both cartridges. There isn't enough difference for the cartridge to be the saving grace.

The difference is small and someone would have to run WEZ to know what it is. It is true that being off by 1.something and still hitting will be different between the 2 cartridges. I THINK the difference is smaller than most think though.

The value of horsepower in hunting cartridges is in achieving bullet expansion at extended ranges. Also, for large differences in velocity and bc, there is a much more noticeable difference. If we are comparing a 223 with a 77mk to a 180 eldm out of a 7 saum, there is a noticeable difference in achieving hits with more wind error and an even bigger difference if you put that bullet in a 28 Nosler.

TLDR version, the difference in wind cheating is a lot smaller than most people think when skimming ballistic charts because they use the wrong numbers to generate the comparison. Inches of drift doesn’t equate to how we call wind and shoot in the real world.

 

[TaperPin]

There are 2 ways to look at this. I'll outline both, and everyone can make a decision.

First, the assumptions. When I make an initial wind call for a first shot, I am reducing what the wind is actually doing down to a specific mph hold from a 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock. If the wind is at an angle, I use a wind rose (an actual modern one with correct values) to convert it to a 9:00 or 3:00 wind hold. The resolution of my wind call is going to be 1 mph (not the accuracy necessarily, I'm saying that I'm not going to guess 10.5 mph. It will be 10 mph or 11 mph) This will then get converted to a wind hold. With enough practice and memorization, this can all be done while on the gun with no chart, kestrel, phone, etc.

Now, the interesting part. In reality, it takes a massive gain in velocity and bc to really make a huge difference in wind cheating ability. I did these calcs for match shooting, but it will be similar for other scenarios. I run a 6 Dasher slow at 2800 fps with a 108 berger. I also have a 28" barreled 243 Ackley improved that pushes 115 DTACS at 3150 fps. That is a .5xx bc at 2800fps compared to a .6xx bc at 3150 fps. When I did the calcs, the typical target size in a prs match was 2 moa. At 1000 yards, if you throw out all other variables, a wind call that is off by 1mph will still hit the target with both cartridges. A wind call that is off 2 mph is going to miss with both cartridges. There isn't enough difference for the cartridge to be the saving grace.

The difference is small and someone would have to run WEZ to know what it is. It is true that being off by 1.something and still hitting will be different between the 2 cartridges. I THINK the difference is smaller than most think though.

The value of horsepower in hunting cartridges is in achieving bullet expansion at extended ranges. Also, for large differences in velocity and bc, there is a much more noticeable difference. If we are comparing a 223 with a 77mk to a 180 eldm out of a 7 saum, there is a noticeable difference in achieving hits with more wind error and an even bigger difference if you put that bullet in a 28 Nosler.

TLDR version, the difference in wind cheating is a lot smaller than most people think when skimming ballistic charts because they use the wrong numbers to generate the comparison. Inches of drift doesn’t equate to how we call wind and shoot in the real world.

However you call it, round it off, or what have you, the difference between a Creedmoor and PRC at 600 yards is significant. People are off on wind calls by a large margin, often 50%, as is shown over and over in various videos, let alone real life experience that every person in here has. Just hitting a milk jug in calm weather is easy, but a 5-15 mph wind makes a lot of people humble. That’s often the number one limiting factor to making first shot hits - I find it interesting that many want to minimize the importance of it.

 

[wabash503]

Don't rush into a purchase for long range... Really study the ballistics before you dive in. And keep in mind that some of the best LR cartridges can be really hard to reload... Which youre going to want to get into to wring the last bit of accuracy or of your rifle

 

[Timberline001]

However you call it, round it off, or what have you, the difference between a Creedmoor and PRC at 600 yards is significant. People are off on wind calls by a large margin, often 50%, as is shown over and over in various videos, let alone real life experience that every person in here has. Just hitting a milk jug in calm weather is easy, but a 5-15 mph wind makes a lot of people humble. That’s often the number one limiting factor to making first shot hits - I find it interesting that many want to minimize the importance of it.

My 147 load for the creed drifts 2.5 moa at 600 with a 10 mph left to right wind and my PRC 147 load drifts 2.3. That’s only a 1 inch difference. I love the the PRC but for guys who hunt under 600 yards it’s really not necessary in my opinion.

 

[Jake Larsen]

My 147 load for the creed drifts 2.5 moa at 600 with a 10 mph left to right wind and my PRC 147 load drifts 2.3. That’s only a 1 inch difference. I love the the PRC but for guys who hunt under 600 yards it’s really not necessary in my opinion.

What’s your velocity at 600 on the creed load? Have you shot any animals at or close to 600? Curious about the expansion/bullet performance you’re getting with those 147s at the lower velocities.

Just for context, I hunted with a PRC for a couple years, and limit myself to shots under 700. The reason I chose it was because I prefer to shoot tougher bullets, the 140 accubond in this case. I needed the extra velocity of the PRC to stretch out the range and still have reliable expansion. Figured this might be helpful context for OP. Need to think about bullet selection/performance in combination with cartridge selection when considering a LR build.

 

[Timberline001]

What’s your velocity at 600 on the creed load? Have you shot any animals at or close to 600? Curious about the expansion/bullet performance you’re getting with those 147s at the lower velocities.

Just for context, I hunted with a PRC for a couple years, and limit myself to shots under 700. The reason I chose it was because I prefer to shoot tougher bullets, the 140 accubond in this case. I needed the extra velocity of the PRC to stretch out the range and still have reliable expansion. Figured this might be helpful context for OP. Need to think about bullet selection/performance in combination with cartridge selection when considering a LR build.

2690 with the creed. We’ve used the 147 close to its 1800 fps impact minimum out of a few different guns and its always performed well. The creeds only been on targets at that range.

 

[TaperPin]

My 147 load for the creed drifts 2.5 moa at 600 with a 10 mph left to right wind and my PRC 147 load drifts 2.3. That’s only a 1 inch difference. I love the the PRC but for guys who hunt under 600 yards it’s really not necessary in my opinion.

We just have different rifles and velocities then. That 147 does have an amazing bc, but 1” of difference is a very small difference in velocity - definitely less than 200 fps, probably even less than 150. If your PRC is only 150 fps faster, that would be unusual, but you know your rifles.

Out of curiosity I plugged that bullet into Hornady’s g1 calculator and 100 fps makes 1.1” of wind drift difference at 600 yards. I don’t trust Hornady’s calculator, but that seems reasonable. If your PRC is only 100 fps faster than the creed, I can see why you leave it at home.

I shoot accubonds and their bc is much worse, creating a lot more drift, so I’ll stick with the PRC. Having said that I’ve always wanted a 28 Nosler, and I added it to a letter to Santa, so if it makes ringing the 600 yard plate easier in the wind, that might become my new deer rifle a year from now. Lol

My childhood friend with a 264 win mag keeps saying he’s been right for the last 40 years and I’m just now coming around. It would be nice to have 100 fps more than the PRC.

 

[Timberline001]

We just have different rifles and velocities then. That 147 does have an amazing bc, but 1” of difference is a very small difference in velocity - definitely less than 200 fps, probably even less than 150. If your PRC is only 150 fps faster, that would be unusual, but you know your rifles.

Out of curiosity I plugged that bullet into Hornady’s g1 calculator and 100 fps makes 1.1” of wind drift difference at 600 yards. I don’t trust Hornady’s calculator, but that seems reasonable. If your PRC is only 100 fps faster than the creed, I can see why you leave it at home.

I shoot accubonds and their bc is much worse, creating a lot more drift, so I’ll stick with the PRC. Having said that I’ve always wanted a 28 Nosler, and I added it to a letter to Santa, so if it makes ringing the 600 yard plate easier in the wind, that might become my new deer rifle a year from now. Lol

My childhood friend with a 264 win mag keeps saying he’s been right for the last 40 years and I’m just now coming around. It would be nice to have 100 fps more than the PRC.

The PRC I used in my example is shooting 2850 with a 20 inch barrel. That’s about average with that barrel length from my experience. The creed is a 20 inch barrel as well.

 

[Timberline001]

We just have different rifles and velocities then. That 147 does have an amazing bc, but 1” of difference is a very small difference in velocity - definitely less than 200 fps, probably even less than 150. If your PRC is only 150 fps faster, that would be unusual, but you know your rifles.

Out of curiosity I plugged that bullet into Hornady’s g1 calculator and 100 fps makes 1.1” of wind drift difference at 600 yards. I don’t trust Hornady’s calculator, but that seems reasonable. If your PRC is only 100 fps faster than the creed, I can see why you leave it at home.

I shoot accubonds and their bc is much worse, creating a lot more drift, so I’ll stick with the PRC. Having said that I’ve always wanted a 28 Nosler, and I added it to a letter to Santa, so if it makes ringing the 600 yard plate easier in the wind, that might become my new deer rifle a year from now. Lol

My childhood friend with a 264 win mag keeps saying he’s been right for the last 40 years and I’m just now coming around. It would be nice to have 100 fps more than the PRC.

Even at 3000 FPS barrel velocity you’re still making a 2.1 MOA correction at 600 yards with the given example. 2 inches less than the creed. Like I said. There’s really not a big difference at 600 yards.

 

[TaperPin]

The PRC I used in my example is shooting 2850 with a 20 inch barrel. That’s about average with that barrel length from my experience. The creed is a 20 inch barrel as well.

That does show the big velocity penalty when cutting down barrels with overbore cartridges, but those numbers don’t reflect normal length barrels that the majority of people use. There’s nothing wrong with short barrels, but it’s not something I’d do.