Long Range Rifle Questions

[Formidilosus]

Pictures or it didn't happen? I would take a guy at his word on what he saw as a guide, but I'm about as far from having a dog in this fight as could be, I shoot monos from a medium bore.

What does being a guide mean? You don’t go to medical school to become one- most are just cowboys or ranch hands. I’m not sure why some expertise is assigned to them as a group- the average knowledge level about terminal ballistics and animal anatomy is very poor in the vast majority of guides I have met. The majority I have met still believe there is a “gap” above the lungs and below the spine.
I have seen 60-80 elk shot with ELD-M’s, TMK’s, Bergers, Match Burners, etc- from 20’ish yards to over 1,100 yards, a lot of those being put through the “shoulders” and even trying to purposely hit the scapula and humerus joint (knuckle) we just can’t seem to get these magical “shoulders” that stop bullets.

There is 3-4 inches of muscle over the scapula, and the scapula itself is as thin as standard cardboard. To grasp what saying “the shoulder stopped the bullet” means- that is literally trying to say that a 140+ grain bullet “blew up” in a squirrel and then couldn’t penetrate a piece of cardboard from a shoe box. It’s ridiculous and brings about confusion how anyone that has deboned an elk and looked at it could think that the “shoulder” is stopping any legit bullet.

 

[TxLite]

literally trying to say that a 140+ grain bullet “blew up” in a squirrel and then couldn’t penetrate a piece of cardboard

I know they aren’t bullet proof and I’m cool with the non-magnum movement but I haven’t thought about it like this. Really puts things into perspective

 

[Jake Larsen]

Do you have any pictures of these shoulders that heavy ELD-M and Bergers didn’t penetrate through?

Two incidents just this past season. I’m talking about hard quarting to shots where the shooter is holding right on the point of the shoulder knuckle. Not just shooting through a scapula. One shot from about 250 yards with a 300WSM. bull recovered 12 hours later. I’ll reach out to the guy and see if he can send photos to post. Lost half the meat because he died in deep snow and it insulated his downside. The other was really close, 60 yards ish, with a 6.5 PRC, bull was not recovered. There’s going to be some serious bias in the data set, because if things go bad, more often than not you’re not going to recover those animals. Which means nobody can verify exactly what happened. It could be those shots aren’t going where the spotter thinks they did, or it could be that the bullet didn’t perform. One way to solve that problem is with a bonded bullet. It’ll hammer them every time


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[35WhelenAI]

Bonded or controlled expansion has its merits.

 

[Jake Larsen]

bonded or controlled expansion has its merits.

This is all I’m saying. There’s different purposes for different tools. I’m not against match bullets. I use them all the time.


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[35WhelenAI]

You use them all the time on game or on a target?

Like I said, I am very far from having a dog in this fight, but the discussion is always worth the read when folks come along.

 

[bpctcb]

I agree it helps but out past 600 yards if you miss judge the wind by a couple miles/hr you will miss. Most people aren’t good enough to call wind within 4 mph of actual wind speed not just where you are at but how the wind is and what it is doing through the whole bullet path.

FF EP.4 -Required Precision for Long-Range –

Podcast Episode · Shoot2Hunt · 03/09/2024 · 17m

podcasts.apple.com

I don’t understand the point of your post here.
In your original post you suggest a different cartridge than 300 win mag. Last time I checked a 300 win mag is extremely capable of killing out to 500 yards and beyond.

I think we have done a good job of derailing the OP’s thread here..

To the OP..
I would suggest that either rifle you mentioned is more than adequate for your stated purpose.
What’s your budget?
What’s important to me in a long range rifle:
A rifle that can consistently & easily shoot moa from field positions. To me that’s a bare rifle weighing 8-9# and with a synthetic stock; preferably with an aluminum bedding block, but pillars & proper bedding will work too.

What is absolutely required is a quality scope properly mounted that will hold a zero and dial consistently. I generally spend more money on my scope than rifle. Lots of good threads here with info on scopes. An SWFA 3-15x50 makes for a great scope for about $700.

And you need good ammo. I would suggest something like Hornady ELD-M ammo. I like ammo with a high sectional density (heavy for caliber) and a high bc.

I recently put together a practice & deer/hog rifle: a Savage 110 Magpul Hunter in 6.5 creedmoor. It cost me $700 from GB after shipping & taxes. I mounted a Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56 and added a Acctu-tac WB-5 bipod for stability. I shot it at 705 yards with factory Hornady 147 gr ELD-M ammo and was able to shoot half moa with it.

For big game calibers with a good ammo selection, I would pick from 6.5, 7 or 300 PRC. Just whichever you can handle in the recoil department. If you’re recoil sensitive I’d drop down to a Creedmoor.

Best of luck with your decision. Buy lots of ammo and practice from field positions.

BP

 

[Jake Larsen]

What does being a guide mean? You don’t go to medical school to become one- most are just cowboys or ranch hands. I’m not sure why some expertise is assigned to them as a group- the average knowledge level about terminal ballistics and animal anatomy is very poor in the vast majority of guides I have met. The majority I have met still believe there is a “gap” above the lungs and below the spine.
I have seen 60-80 elk shot with ELD-M’s, TMK’s, Bergers, Match Burners, etc- from 20’ish yards to over 1,100 yards, a lot of those being put through the “shoulders” and even trying to purposely hit the scapula and humerus joint (knuckle) we just can’t seem to get these magical “shoulders” that stop bullets.

There is 3-4 inches of muscle over the scapula, and the scapula itself is as thin as standard cardboard. To grasp what saying “the shoulder stopped the bullet” means- that is literally trying to say that a 140+ grain bullet “blew up” in a squirrel and then couldn’t penetrate a piece of cardboard from a shoe box. It’s ridiculous and brings about confusion how anyone that has deboned an elk and looked at it could think that the “shoulder” is stopping any legit bullet.

Not all guides are good or experienced, that’s for sure. But guides who have been around a while and DO have experience bring exactly what you just appealed to. We’ve seen a lot of animals shot with a lot of different bullets at different ranges. Some of us have come away with a SLIGHTLY different opinion than you. At reasonable hunting ranges for most shooters, I’d rather see a client shoot a controlled expansion bullet. I’m not saying match bullets don’t kill. They certainly do. From what I’ve seen, most of the time they kill faster and with more “wow” factor. I just prefer the performance of a bonded bullet. I prefer the wound channel they create from a meat care standpoint. And I trust their penetration on less than ideal shots more.


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[Jake Larsen]

You use them all the time on game or on a target?

Like I said, I am very far from having a dog in this fight, but the discussion is always worth the read when folks come along.

Some of both. For dedicated long range work, they have far better terminal performance. They’ll expand at lower velocities and create killing wound channels. Also you need the high BCs and accuracy of those bullets. Controlled expansion bullets tend to require a bit more velocity to get reliable expansion. My personal preference is bullets like the Sierra TGK, which is kind of a hybrid. Cup and core, with a thickened jacket and a ballistic tip. Match type BCs and amazing consistency, but tougher than something like the ELDM. Push those at moderate speeds and they’re lethal, without being too explosive.


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[Alex Genereux]

I don’t understand the point of your post here.
In your original post you suggest a different cartridge than 300 win mag. Last time I checked a 300 win mag is extremely capable of killing out to 500 yards and beyond.


Best of luck with your decision. Buy lots of ammo and practice from field positions.

BP

My suggestion wasn’t that he needs a different cartridge but he should consider looking through those threads. That may lead him to a different cartridge is because he is setting up a new rifle. I wasn’t suggesting that a 300 wm couldn’t kill to 500+. As he stated he wanted to proficient to 500 and that means he is going to have to shoot to 500+ to be confident in his abilities. Spotting impacts is important and as you stated he should buy lots of ammo and shoot a lot. Well that is easier and cheaper to do on a lighter recoiling platform.

 

[Harvey_NW]

So those of you who hunt at 500+ yards; what are the components of the rifle that help you reliably shoot far?

Quality rifle, quality rings mounted solid to the action, reliable optic, quality ammo, solid zero, and practice, practice, practice.

Either rifle choice will likely shoot good, but I personally prefer Tikka for the trigger reliability and aftermarket support. A set of UM rings, a drop test approved optic, a vertical replacement grip (or well designed carbon stock if you want to customize further), and a LOT of ammo after testing a few types to see what shoots best, if needed.

I would also suggest doing some research on cartridges with less recoil. A 300WM is about the equivalent of buying a Peterbuilt for a mountain truck.

 

[35WhelenAI]

A 300 Win Mag certainly has recoil. Many years ago, in a land far, far away hunters could shoot good groups from the bench, having learned to look through the shot and focus on the target with a PAST recoil pad while verifying zero for hunting season. Then practice dry firing for trigger feel in the comfort of their home.

With that said, I haven't shot my 300 Win Mag in anger for many a moon, instead going with a lower recoiling cartridge (relative to a 300 Win Mag) in the 35 Whelen AI with very satisfactory results.

 

[199p]

A factory tikka with a good carbon stock that fits you well will outshoot many higher $$ rifles and many full custom rifles.

 

[SDHNTR]

Not all guides are good or experienced, that’s for sure. But guides who have been around a while and DO have experience bring exactly what you just appealed to. We’ve seen a lot of animals shot with a lot of different bullets at different ranges. Some of us have come away with a SLIGHTLY different opinion than you. At reasonable hunting ranges for most shooters, I’d rather see a client shoot a controlled expansion bullet. I’m not saying match bullets don’t kill. They certainly do. From what I’ve seen, most of the time they kill faster and with more “wow” factor. I just prefer the performance of a bonded bullet. I prefer the wound channel they create from a meat care standpoint. And I trust their penetration on less than ideal shots more.


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I, for one, agree with you. I see dozens of animals killed every year, lots of them big boar hogs, which are incredibly tough. Back before the lead ban, it was rather common to find fragments and bullet pieces in healed up old wounds, usually around the shoulder and in the shield. There is absolutely a place for match type bullets, but in my experience it’s not at short range, not at magnum velocities, and not at impact areas involving large bones (or heavy cartilage in the case of hogs).

It’s not that certain types of bullets are unilaterally good or bad. You just need to know the characteristics of your chosen bullet, be aware of its limitations (ALL bullets have them) work around them, and use the bullet appropriately. Don’t use a wrench to do a hammer’s job.

If I were a formal guide (I play one regularly) I would never tell a client that any one bullet is good or bad. If a client asked me what bullet to shoot, I would simply say to shoot the one that is most accurate in their gun, as accuracy trumps all. Then, given what bullet they show up with, I would simply use it accordingly — ie. Not taking long/low impact velocity shots or distant shots in the ribs with monos, or not taking quartering too shots at close range with match bullets. Use the tool properly.

Back to the OP’s question, pick either rifle, but favor the one that leaves you enough in the budget for the best scope and mounting equipment you can buy, and a couple cases of ammo. Ditch the magnum idea as they just suck for practicing. Get a .308 and rock on.

 

[Timberline001]

Pictures or it didn't happen? I would take a guy at his word on what he saw as a guide, but I'm about as far from having a dog in this fight as could be, I shoot monos from a medium bore.

Why do we have to take his word? I’m a guide as well and I’ve seen the opposite. I’d much rather see a client shooting ELDMs or VLDs over any monolithic, especially in places where property lines are near by.

 

[bpctcb]

I’d much rather see a client shooting ELDMs or VLDs over any monolithic, especially in places where property lines are near by.

I shot a 180” muley near a property line and I had to shoot the damn thing 5 times with monos before I was satisfied it was down for good. Granted it was my first muley and by far my biggest buck, but I wasn’t let him cross the fence.
I don’t shot monos anymore due to this.

BP

 

[Jake Larsen]

Why do we have to take his word? I’m a guide as well and I’ve seen the opposite. I’d much rather see a client shooting ELDMs or VLDs over any monolithic, especially in places where property lines are near by.

I never said anything about monos. I hate those things. Have had similar experiences as described above.


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[Jake Larsen]

I, for one, agree with you. I see dozens of animals killed every year, lots of them big boar hogs, which are incredibly tough. Back before the lead ban, it was rather common to find fragments and bullet pieces in healed up old wounds, usually around the shoulder and in the shield. There is absolutely a place for match type bullets, but in my experience it’s not at short range, not at magnum velocities, and not at impact areas involving large bones (or heavy cartilage in the case of hogs).

It’s not that certain types of bullets are unilaterally good or bad. You just need to know the characteristics of your chosen bullet, be aware of its limitations (ALL bullets have them) work around them, and use the bullet appropriately. Don’t use a wrench to do a hammer’s job.

If I were a formal guide (I play one regularly) I would never tell a client that any one bullet is good or bad. If a client asked me what bullet to shoot, I would simply say to shoot the one that is most accurate in their gun, as accuracy trumps all. Then, given what bullet they show up with I would use it accordingly — ie. Not taking shots or shots in the ribs with monos, or not taking quartering too shots at close range with match bullets. Use the tool properly.

Back to the OP’s question, pick either rifle, but favor the one that leaves you enough in the budget for the best scope and mounting equipment you can buy, and a couple cases of ammo. Ditch the magnum idea as they just suck for practicing. Get a .308 and rock on.

Exactly this….as I said very early on in this conversation. Tool for the job. I would like to repeat, I do not hate match bullets for hunting. They have their place. I use them sometimes. I do not disparage them to clients. They just have certain drawbacks based on my real world observations IMO.


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[Timberline001]

I shot a 180” muley near a property line and I had to shoot the damn thing 5 times with monos before I was satisfied it was down for good. Granted it was my first muley and by far my biggest buck, but I wasn’t let him cross the fence.
I don’t shot monos anymore due to this.

BP

For sure. I’ve had some bad experiences on cow hunts with monos where animals get shot then get back in the herd and we can’t give them a follow up. They die eventually but they definitely go a lot further than they need to.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Why do we have to take his word? I’m a guide as well and I’ve seen the opposite. I’d much rather see a client shooting ELDMs or VLDs over any monolithic, especially in places where property lines are near by.

I did not say WE or YOU have to take him at his word. That's up to you if you think what he said is not the experience he is speaking from. I said I take him at his word and see no reason he would not tell it straight from his experience.