Less Recoil than .308 Win... BUT can still take a Mule Deer @650yds. Which Catridge?

[TheGDog]

99.9999999999999999% of 13 year old kids have no business shooting game at 650 yards.

OH good grief.... didn't everybody see the Benny Hill comedy bit about "Do Not Assume"?

 

[TheGDog]

SIGH... Guess I should have been more clear... *I* have an area where I've been seeing Deer present themselves at 650yds. So *I* will need it to be a rifle which *can* take one out to those distances (though it's not likely I'd be taking a shot that far, gotta be prepared). I'm just not the biggest fan of recoil, and I'm noticing all these other calibers people are talking about now.

The boy recently got licensed. He does fine with .223 bolt gun, but obviously no way a .223 is doing 650yds. So with *me*curious to see if there is a slightly more moderately recoiling round out there which could fit this bill, for me. That he could likely shoot successfully as well.

That it can take that game, at that distance, but that a thin kid (not that he would be the one trying to shoot those distances) would likely be able to shoot it without too much of an issue.

 

[Vandy321]

6.5 PRC w/a brake.

Also. There is a young girl at a local 600 yard steel match who absolutely schools 75% of the shooters. I believe she is about 12. Sponsored by Prime. Enough with the BS that a young kid shouldn't shoot 600 yards.

I've seen 45 year olds with $8k rifles who couldnt hit an IPSC plate at 400 yards...age has nothing to do with it.

 

[Big Ern]

6.5cm. Add brake. Recoil is minimal. Loud, yes.

 

[Rob5589]

SIGH... Guess I should have been more clear... *I* have an area where I've been seeing Deer present themselves at 650yds. So *I* will need it to be a rifle which *can* take one out to those distances (though it's not likely I'd be taking a shot that far, gotta be prepared). I'm just not the biggest fan of recoil, and I'm noticing all these other calibers people are talking about now.

The boy recently got licensed. He does fine with .223 bolt gun, but obviously no way a .223 is doing 650yds. So with *me*curious to see if there is a slightly more moderately recoiling round out there which could fit this bill, for me. That he could likely shoot successfully as well.

That it can take that game, at that distance, but that a thin kid (not that he would be the one trying to shoot those distances) would likely be able to shoot it without too much of an issue.

Have you read the .223 for deer/bear/elk thread? With the TMK the .223 is a proficient killer to 300 on deer. Just another option.

 

[gelton]

For all those saying that a 13-year-old shouldn't be shooting deer at 650 yards, I will just say I have seen PLENTY of very proficient young long-range shooters. One of the best at my prior range was two nine-year-old twin girls shooting .223's and banging targets at 1,000 yards...one might say, but yeah those are just targets and I would say, check out the video below.

Given the right training, it can be done.

 

[TheGDog]

I don't want to go with a brake for noise reasons.

In other places I hunt, it's very close quarters and thick, sitting in ambush. So I need to be able to sit and listen. And being close-qaurters it doesn't afford me the opportunity to hurry-up and put on hearing protection (Though right now I'm making some purchases of in-ear products which may solve this problem).

So as you can see I'd rather have the pressure wave going all forward away from me for that reason.

OK, so sounds like was I correct in my interpretation of the Ballistic table data that a .243 Win at that kinda distance (at least for a Mule Deer) is a no-go, and not enough energy.

RE: This table:
.243WIN 100gr bullet 11-12 ftlbs recoil
6.5CM 130gr bullet 12-13 ftlbs recoil
.308 Win 165gr bullet 17-18 ftlbs recoil

Hrmm... that's really making a 6.5CM sound interesting.

Meh... meanwhile I guess I'll try switching to 150gr .308's to tone it down a little.

My initial thought was go down to a .243 Win. and have that be my everything rifle. Since I don't usually shoot at much distance anyway.

But after having those deer present themselves @650yds in a more Open Country setting. And not all that dang far from my truck. I want to start preparing myself to be able to take that kind of an opportunity as well. So upgraded the optic on my .308 Win.

Then got to thinking how if the boy was with me out there in that open spot... and how I know he wouldn't do well with the recoil of the .308 Win, I got to pondering what might be an in-between caliber that could satisfy both those needs. Me shoot 650yd. Him be able to use it for deer and not cringe and develop bad habits.

He does fine with his 870 20ga now that I have a limbsaver pad on it.

 

[Rob5589]

Shooting any centerfire without hearing protection is a terrible idea. Especially for the kids. Buy some electronic muffs, they can be had for under $100. I make mine wear them even in the duck blind. My hearing is shot after years of no protection.

 

[Wacko]

Don't write off a 6mm.....the 6 creed is your answer....fast twist, heavy for cal high bc bullets, in factory ammo, low recoil (lower than a 130 6.5 iMHO - by a good bit)

103 eld-x at 3050 (hornady precision hunter), 8000' elev, 650 yds....it's still going 2191 and over 1000 ftlbs of energy if that matters. The velocity is where you need it for expansion, no deer alive will take one to the vitals and survive.

 

[Buckweet]

I would keep the 308 and put a muzzle brake on it unless you are wanting to buy a new rifle. I have a 6.5 creedmoor love the gun only use for long distance shooting it would be fine to take a deer out to those distances with good shot placement.

 

[wind gypsy]

6 creedmoor is the obvious choice to me. Less recoil and flatter than a 6.5 and factory rifles and ammo is build around modern bullets unlike the 243.

 

[IdahoElk]

What WB said.

 

[AkMtnRunner]

I think you're on the right track with the 243. It's a good half-way between the 223 and 308 capability and recoil wise. The 6.5 and 7-08 really are just splitting hairs from the 308. If it were a dedicated long-range rifle, perhaps the 6.5 would have a stronger argument but as you say, a 650 yd shot is not likely.

But most importantly, whatever chambering is available in the best platform for you and your 13 year old.

And don't forget the 25-06

 

[menhaden_man]

Guys we’re busting my balls but I crunched numbers on calibers a while back. I think the short answer is there several options that’ll kill deer with less recoil.

Adding numbers to the notorious caliber debate

In rethinking my hunting arsenal, I compiled some data to get a closer look at the caliber debate. Thought I'd share here since this discussion is never-ending. There are several shortcomings in this review, though I did it on the couch during the Rose Bowl so take that for what it's worth...

www.rokslide.com

 

[ClearCreek]

99.9999999999999999% of 13 year old kids have no business shooting game at 650 yards.

I know this won't be popular, but with how I have seen a lot of hunters shoot, that can be said for a lot of people.

ClearCreek

 

[txhunter581]

4 shot group from a bench my 11 year old grandson shot with my 308 with an arrestor.

Would I let him shoot at a deer over 200 yards? NOPE! Bench and shooting in the field at an animal are two entirely different critters.

 

[TheGDog]

Wow I think I know how Trump must feel right now.

At least 3 different times now... it's been clarified... and then re-clarified that we are NOT.... talking about a kid taking a 650yd shot.

"Is 'dis 'ting On?" <Thump! Thump! Thump!>


Anyway... Rob... I'm right there with ya man... I know and understand that taking shots without ear pro is no bueno. Especially since I have the hearing severely compromised on one side. My hearing of highs is greatly reduced on one side due to a trauma related to a basal skull fracture back in like '97.

Also... I really got into enjoying nice moderately strong (About 1000Watts RMS) car audio there for a period. But then when I got into hunting I realized I needed to stop that.

That's why I'm investigating some in-ear solutions. I can't really do over the ear because I'm employing 3D leafy suit in order to achieve bow-range 25-35yds opportunities at this one spot.

.17 HMR shots don't bug me. .223 Rem shots... after a lot of them it can start to bug (one windy day where I was having a bear of a time hitting this one Ground Squirrel at 104yds)
.30-30 shots only mildly bug. No real persistent ring or anything.
.308 shots though are down right unpleasant, and ring for awhile. I could do without them being unprotected (hence why I'm beginning to explore in-ear hear-pro options. Also I wear glasses too so they make wear muff-type hear-pro make ya sore after awhile from how it pushes down on your glasses frame arms).

These questions are coming about because I'm due to receive a refund for a prior weapon purchase which the manufacturer verified it could not accurately fire the lead-free I would need here in CA. So I was thinking I'd explore getting a caliber that's less recoil than the .308 Win... but that could still possibly if called upon could make a shot like that. And if both I and the boy were out together,and in more Open Country, it'd probably end up being in his hands, and I'd still have to carry the .308 Win.

But we don't yet go out together for big game. Would kind of like him to maybe experience getting a coyote before then if possible. And NO... there is NO way in HELL I'd let the boy try shots w/ centerfire without ear-pro! Just so everybody is clear.

I'm liking what I'm hearing there Wind Gypsy. RE: flatter trajectory. The .17 HMR has made me a fan of flat trajectory! I've actuallybefore now... in terms of ditching the .308 Win... have been going back and forth re: 243 Win and .22-250. Since most of the time I'm looking at 200-300yds tops. 300 being rare.

But Like I said... the thing of it was.. this one place I've been going to for coyotes and ground squirrels though... it's big Desert Hills. And had this group of like 6 Does totally not seeing me in my leafy suit when I crested over a finger like 600-650yds away from them. So it got my wheels to turning. I mean... ya know... go with what ya have... sure... but if I could do it with less recoil I'd be happier. My shoulders have seen better days, between weights and dirtbikes.

 

[tommy1005]

My 8 year old son shoots a suppressed 6.5 Creedmoor accurately to 300 yards. It has an adjustable Manners stock on it so I get to shoot it sometimes as well. These are groups at 500 and 700 yards with me shooting the other day. I have no problems launching the 140’s at a deer in the 600-700 yard range. Velocity is still in the 1800fps range at that distance, meaning most Bullets will still function properly.

 

[txhunter581]

Wow I think I know how Trump must feel right now.

At least 3 different times now... it's been clarified... and then re-clarified that we are NOT.... talking about a kid taking a 650yd shot.

"Is 'dis 'ting On?" <Thump! Thump! Thump!>


Anyway... Rob... I'm right there with ya man... I know and understand that taking shots without ear pro is no bueno. Especially since I have the hearing severely compromised on one side. My hearing of highs is greatly reduced on one side due to a trauma related to a basal skull fracture back in like '97.

Also... I really got into enjoying nice moderately strong (About 1000Watts RMS) car audio there for a period. But then when I got into hunting I realized I needed to stop that.

That's why I'm investigating some in-ear solutions. I can't really do over the ear because I'm employing 3D leafy suit in order to achieve bow-range 25-35yds opportunities at this one spot.

.17 HMR shots don't bug me. .223 Rem shots... after a lot of them it can start to bug (one windy day where I was having a bear of a time hitting this one Ground Squirrel at 104yds)
.30-30 shots only mildly bug. No real persistent ring or anything.
.308 shots though are down right unpleasant, and ring for awhile. I could do without them being unprotected (hence why I'm beginning to explore in-ear hear-pro options. Also I wear glasses too so they make wear muff-type hear-pro make ya sore after awhile from how it pushes down on your glasses frame arms).

These questions are coming about because I'm due to receive a refund for a prior weapon purchase which the manufacturer verified it could not accurately fire the lead-free I would need here in CA. So I was thinking I'd explore getting a caliber that's less recoil than the .308 Win... but that could still possibly if called upon could make a shot like that. And if both I and the boy were out together,and in more Open Country, it'd probably end up being in his hands, and I'd still have to carry the .308 Win.

But we don't yet go out together for big game. Would kind of like him to maybe experience getting a coyote before then if possible. And NO... there is NO way in HELL I'd let the boy try shots w/ centerfire without ear-pro! Just so everybody is clear.

I'm liking what I'm hearing there Wind Gypsy. RE: flatter trajectory. The .17 HMR has made me a fan of flat trajectory! I've actuallybefore now... in terms of ditching the .308 Win... have been going back and forth re: 243 Win and .22-250. Since most of the time I'm looking at 200-300yds tops. 300 being rare.

But Like I said... the thing of it was.. this one place I've been going to for coyotes and ground squirrels though... it's big Desert Hills. And had this group of like 6 Does totally not seeing me in my leafy suit when I crested over a finger like 600-650yds away from them. So it got my wheels to turning. I mean... ya know... go with what ya have... sure... but if I could do it with less recoil I'd be happier. My shoulders have seen better days, between weights and dirtbikes.

I want to clarify that I understand that. You made that clear. I was responding to those that said it would-be OK to let a 13 yr old Shoot long distance. Even though I can’t shoot any better than my 11 did at the range, there is no comparison to shooting in the field. Sorry to get your thread off course

And I won’t try and talk you out of a new rifle. I have a bunch!! But I was suggesting the simplest/cheapest solution. And then you would have a gun that you can both shoot on any game at any distance as time passes.

 

[TheGDog]

I want to clarify that I understand that. You made that clear. I was responding to those that said it would-be OK to let a 13 yr old Shoot long distance. Even though I can’t shoot any better than my 11 did at the range, there is no comparison to shooting in the field. Sorry to get your thread off course

And I won’t try and talk you out of a new rifle. I have a bunch!! But I was suggesting the simplest/cheapest solution. And then you would have a gun that you can both shoot on any game at any distance as time passes.

Gotcha, Roger that. We'll see how it goes with the in-ear hearing protection I ordered. If I end up liking 'em good enough than I might consider something with a brake on it. Thanks.

RE: Quieter - This year I actually plan on taking the .223 Rem. up into the thick spot where the shots are close-quarters. Seeing what the Remington HTP w/ Barnes 62gr TSX did to the Bobcat last year. I feel confident it'd handle a deer just fine in that close range scenario. I'd actually purchased a .44 Mag lever action... with the idea of using it in there, especially since it was fairly light in weight. But it won't shoot the Lead-Free coppers accurately at all, so I had to scrub the idea of using that in there last year. So started thinking about another .44 Mag option like the Ruger 77/44. Because it's such a light carry option.

But then I got to thinking why? Like if I'm going to buy something now to fill the gap between .223 Rem, .30-30 Win and .308 Win. I then started to think that overall it'd be more wise to choose something that would handle the long distances greater than .223 Rem. But maybe something more comfortable to shoot a lot than the .308 Win is. Which is why I started thinking about the .243 Win. again. (Actually thought hard about buying that .243 Win first before the .223 Rem, But my boy was younger at the time, so thought I'd better get .223 Rem in a bolt gun so he could start doing centerfire with that first to get used to it,lower cost, and also since The AR fires 5.56/223, figured that'd help him be cool with doing it in bolt gun form, since same thing the AR fires.)

And I mean... in the Open Country spot, for now I'll take the .308 Win. I guess. It's just.. I dunno.. ever since started really enjoying the extreme laser-beam accuracy of that lil .17 HMR... and then thinking back comparing/contrasting the wounding difference I saw between .308 Win 168gr TTSX vs 150gr .30-30 Federal Premium Trophy Copper Roundnose Polymer tip... while I like that the .308 put 'em down like Thor's Hammer. To me I thought there sure was an excessive amount of meat wasted in that 6" circle of bloodshot on the entry-wound side. So when I take that, together with not "liking" touching off the .308's. Again, I shoot'em accurately and all that, I just don't look forward to it the same as I look forward to the .30-30 for example.