Lead in Meat Discussion

[doc holiday13]

I shoot some copper, I prefer lead for my mag rifles. I do not like the lead bans because it ends up restricting what bullets I am able to get causing an overall reduction in supply. It makes an already difficult situation worse.

Kind of happy everyone on this thread has remained civil! I was not optimistic.

You seem to have balanced approach to this topic... You can quietly leave or we can report you to the admins hahahahahahahahaha

 

[MallardSX2]

No telling how many lead BB's I've swallowed in my day.

I'm a pretty regular shitter so I doubt they stayed in me long. lol

 

[FLATHEAD]

I've killed and eat a lot of Whitetail in my 57 years, all killed with lead bullets.
I'm very sure the fried chicken and Little Debbies will get me before the perceived lead in those Whitetail.

 

[finner]

Based on your experience where do you recommend hitting them? Hilar plexus, high shoulder, meat saver shot. I have Hammer bullets but only harvest one thus far. My son had a perfect meat saver shot 225 yards. The deer walked 20 yards before laying down. Thanks

Middle lung has put everything down in short order, which is more than I can say for Barnes. I'd feel pretty comfortable taking a high shoulder shot after seeing a .284 143HH punch through both shoulders of a bull at 500 a couple years ago

 

[30338]

America seems to be very lawsuit friendly these days. I mean we have a lot of attorneys out there. Every night on tv I see ads about bad water at a military base or if I sprayed roundup, call this number.

How is it that after consuming millions of tons of wild animals that were killed with lead bullets, that not one attorney has sued Winchester, Remington, Hornady, Speer, Nosler, Berger, etc etc etc over elevated lead levels? Why isn't there thousands of plaintiffs lining up for a class action lawsuit with medical evidence proving they were poisoned by lead bullets?

They aren't doing it because it has not and never will be a problem.

 

[Marbles]

If you happen to swallow the very rare small chunk of processed lead, how much of that lead is your body actually absorbing? My understanding is very little, if any.


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For an adult, not enough to make much difference. There was an icelandic study that found heavy consumption of game birds shot with lead results in blood lead levels that over years will contribute to problems such as high BP, but not high enough to cause acute toxicity.

Those same levels would be concerning in young children due to the effect of lead on brain development.

I am switching to copper due to my young daughters. That is my only reason. I think people with children, particularly if they hunt small game (and copper 22lrs I have used suck compared to lead) should consider it. For adults, there is a small potential benefit, but it is small and would not influence my personal decision on using lead or copper.

 

[Maki35]

Use what you feel comfortable with.
A friend has the same concerns.. So he hunts big game with copper bullets & steel shot for upland birds.

I've always hunted with lead. But that may change because they're talking about banning the use of lead bullets on public land around here.

 

[ODB]

Core lokt bullets are bonded ya goof

Core-Lokt Tipped

New for this hunting season, Core-Lokt® Tipped offers the same proven on-game performance as original Core-Lokt with improved accuracy and long-range potential.

www.remington.com

This isn't meant to be a binary argument.. I very much make it akin to the seatbelt and helmet argument, although its not entirely equitable. I also oppose seatbelt and helmet laws.

My first question do you agree that lead spray happens? I think that would be the simpliest fact, is that lead spray occurs upon bullet impact with an animal. Even in bonded bullets? I don't recall seeing any manufacturer claim their lead or non lead bullet retaining 100% weight. So that non retained weight has to go somewhere

Do you agree that lead spray is real?
Would you agree that ingesting lead isn't good for you?
If you could avoid ingesting lead, would you?
If we changed this argument to "lead in water" would you still maintain your position?

I also understand that not everyone can handload and generally its a lot harder to find non lead factory loaded ammo. I won't tell you not hunt. I'll also concede that the quantity ingested would be very low and very likely non impactful on your health if your have a good butcher

The study is from 2009 , before the core lokt ultra existed. I very seriously doubt anyone paid any attention to since factors else they would have mentioned them in the study.

Ya goof

 

[doc holiday13]

The study is from 2009 , before the core lokt ultra existed. I very seriously doubt anyone paid any attention to since factors else they would have mentioned them in the study.

Ya goof

The link I posted has "the history of core lokt" bullets and they've been bonded for a long time . At least 2002

YA GOOF

 

[Marbles]

This is a good read on a research study for lead bullets. Full disclosure it came off a link from Hammer bullets website.

Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure - PMC

Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here is another one https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/ammo/lead-short-summary.html

 

[idelkslayer]

4) Why are you opposed to switching your ammo? Have you taken your and your families blood samples to get analyzed and there is zero lead impact?

I only pulled this question from your post because the other reasons for avoiding non-lead bullets don't really apply. It's a good question, but it goes both ways. For those who switched due to perceived health risks, "Did they get their blood tested and find that they had elevated lead, and so made the switch? Or did they just assume.

I am fairly data-driven in most other aspects of my life and career. If I am going to change anything it would need to be supported by data such as a blood test of each member of my family. I would change if I found elevated lead levels in our blood. However, I suspect that many who switched to non-lead bullets because of a perceived risk, did so without getting a blood test to verify if it was necessary.

I'm sure there are others who switched to non-lead because they didn't want to contribute to the deaths of birds-of-prey. And that's a fine reason too but it is not an overall population level problem. Although I think I did read something recently about a local or regional population effect on eagles.

The x-ray of the springbok showing the lead "spray" is interesting and appears quite scary. However, I have some questions and observations. Are the internal organs still present in that x-ray? I suspect that a lot of those fragments are not in the meat. The bullet used was a Berger, a bullet that is designed to fragment after minimal penetration. Are there similar images of animals killed with bonded bullets or even traditional cup and core bullets? If my suspicion about the internal organs holding most of these fragments is correct, a follow up x-ray after organ removal would make an interesting comparison.

The study linked above about butchered and packaged meat shows lead fragments in edible portions of meat and elevated blood-lead levels in experimentally fed pigs. I'm curious why the elevated blood-lead levels in the pigs decreased after 4 days when they continued to be fed contaminated meat for 9 days. That study may be enough for me to get my family and myself tested. I'm a pretty meticulous butcher. I don't mess with any meat near the wound channel but the study shows lead dispersion of 24 cm. That is much further than I cut away from the wound channel so I may be leaving some lead in my meat.

I don't have a conclusion, just that until I get data on myself and my family I won't change anything, I'm trying to decided if I'm convinced/concerned enough to actually pursue getting tested.

 

[finner]

I'm sure there are others who switched to non-lead because they didn't want to contribute to the deaths of birds-of-prey. And that's a fine reason too but it is not an overall population level problem. Although I think I did read something recently about a local or regional population effect on eagles.

This is my primary concern. Personally, I'm here for a good time not for a long time. There's plenty of places where lead ammo probably has a negligible effect on bird populations. However, when we look at all the threats to raptors like habitat loss, wind farms, prey species decline, etc. it's pretty easy for me to get behind a good mono bullet that's lethal at every range I'm comfortable shooting at and that won't impact the pair of golden eagles I see every day.

Yeah, the other things might be bigger problems but I like seeing eagles, hawks and falcons when I'm out hunting and fishing and am happy to have an impact on the problem that I'm capable of helping. Especially because my family hunts the same area and usually leaves over a dozen carcasses out on the same 8k acres.

And some of you might not love this argument, but it's pretty clear that the more hunters who voluntarily start hunting with nonlead ammo, the longer we'll go without government regulation, which might impact target shooting too.

 

[Okhotnik]

I've used Barnes bullets for decades, they are superior to any cup and core bullet, no fear bullets. Just use them.

Ive seen deer, elk lost with barnes. Bullet just pencil holed thorough animals. Anyone have any reliable studies on blood tests on sportsmen who use lead shot and bullets?

 

[30338]

I do an annual blood test before my annual physical. Now I am for sure having lead levels run as well. I already know it will be well within normal levels. Anyone on this thread having a physical done, get your's checked. This has been done so much with no elevated lead in hunters and their family's blood work but what the heck. Let's beat a dead horse.

I have used Berger bullets while killing a ton of stuff that my kids who excelled at STEM classwork also ate. I'll post my lead levels in August after my physical. Till then I am on pins and needles worrying about how much lead I have in my blood.

And remember, mask up if it saves just one poor little kid. Masking while driving is also known to stop the spread. Step up please.

 

[Marbles]

Ive seen deer, elk lost with barnes. Bullet just pencil holed thorough animals. Anyone have any reliable studies on blood tests on sportsmen who use lead shot and bullets?

If you have time. The pro leaded will like his conclusion, though he does gloss over a point or two in order to strengthen his position, it is still a good summary. It is a bit long, but probably more useful than just posting links to studies as he covers the studies, and discusses things that should be considered in the studies.

Health Risks of Lead in Venison: Gray Toxin or Red Herring? | Deer & Deer Hunting

Find out if bird biologists' concerns about the effects of lead in venison on human health are legitimate or just an effort to save birds.

www.deeranddeerhunting.com

If the deer and elk were lost, how do you know it was bad bullet performance and not bad shot placement?

 

[Rich M]

have no idea how folks are getter lead and jacket pieces in steaks with chest cavity shots - Worded to imply that the lead travels all over thru the animal…

My dad shot a buck facing him and the bullet was in the opposing ham. No surprise there. Something about bullet penetration as opposed to detonation and spray.

I have no issues w the old style cup and cores and dont worry about unknown fragments getting from the chest cavity into the steaks. Most of my bullets pass thru tho. I dont shoot highly frangible bullets.

 

[Teodoro]

If you have time. The pro leaded will like his conclusion, though he does gloss over a point or two in order to strengthen his position, it is still a good summary. It is a bit long, but probably more useful than just posting links to studies as he covers the studies, and discusses things that should be considered in the studies.

Health Risks of Lead in Venison: Gray Toxin or Red Herring? | Deer & Deer Hunting

Find out if bird biologists' concerns about the effects of lead in venison on human health are legitimate or just an effort to save birds.

www.deeranddeerhunting.com

Both of these quotes are from that article:
* "Controlled studies documented lead fragments as far as 11 inches from the wound channel."
* "The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources experimentally shot 80 carcasses (deer and sheep) and evaluated the presence of lead in each. High velocity ballistic tip bullets left an average of 141 fragments, an average of 11 inches from the wound channel (some were farther)."

Those statements cannot both be true.

I know it's a minor point, and that a million things can introduce errors into copy, often beyond the author's control. But it's still not a great thing to have in your article.

 

[Marbles]

Both of these quotes are from that article:
* "Controlled studies documented lead fragments as far as 11 inches from the wound channel."
* "The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources experimentally shot 80 carcasses (deer and sheep) and evaluated the presence of lead in each. High velocity ballistic tip bullets left an average of 141 fragments, an average of 11 inches from the wound channel (some were farther)."

Those statements cannot both be true.

I know it's a minor point, and that a million things can introduce errors into copy, often beyond the author's control. But it's still not a great thing to have in your article.

The Minnesota study is linked in post #91. Both are true.

Also an example of why I did not post more studies, no one bothers to read them.

 

[Marbles]

Both of these quotes are from that article:
* "Controlled studies documented lead fragments as far as 11 inches from the wound channel."
* "The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources experimentally shot 80 carcasses (deer and sheep) and evaluated the presence of lead in each. High velocity ballistic tip bullets left an average of 141 fragments, an average of 11 inches from the wound channel (some were farther)."

Those statements cannot both be true.

I know it's a minor point, and that a million things can introduce errors into copy, often beyond the author's control. But it's still not a great thing to have in your article.

It is also an example of his understatement of finding to support lead, the furthest in that study was 14 inches, but it was an outlier and 11 was the maximum average distance.

 

[Teodoro]

It is also an example of his understatement of finding to support lead, the furthest in that study was 14 inches, but it was an outlier and 11 was the maximum average distance.

It's possible that he only meant to avoid overstating an outlier, but even your explanation concedes that he instead mistated a fact.

Either 11 inches is as far from the wound channel as they found lead, or it is the average of a set of numbers, some of which are higher. It cannot be both.