Kimber Montana vs. Tikka T3x Superlite vs. Savage 16 LWH (308)

[Rorschach]

Okay, the technique comment makes me feel a little better.

I posted this way back, but I can literally go out with handloads not customized to one of my AR's, a 6.5lb rifle, a non-magnified 2MOA red dot (Aimpoint T2), a really crappy teeth-weld, monopod'ing it off of the magazine, no bags, and reliably shoot 1.5" group at 100yds. It just seems absurd that the technique would need to be that different for the rigs I've been shooting in this thread.

And honestly, maybe if I can't work out anything else, hand loads are where this will end. I don't know. Only in the past day or two have I started considering that a possibility. But, I'm not nearly ready to go down that road yet.

I personally don't put much stock in the different technique thing. Lighter rifles are just harder to hold steady than heavy ones and it just takes trigger time to get used to them. Granted I only shoot 200 rounds a year through my Kimbers. But my 223s are 6 pound rifles as well and they are a lot of fun to practice with and shoot those quite a bit more as of the last year or so and certainly get me more used to shooting light rifles.

I agree the Tikka has shot a bit better....just find it funny that both have a 3 MOA group with each and most are still 1" more with both but one is MUCH better than the other as stated but a couple of them.

Like I said I hope you find a setup that works for ya and don't have to sell both and revert to your accurate $400 rifle, but in the end its you that has to be satisfied of course and again wish you all the best in your endeavor.

 

[luke moffat]

I'd buy some more of that hornady precision hunter and practice more. Nothing wrong with that group.

I agree 100% !

 

[luke moffat]

Okay, the technique comment makes me feel a little better.

I posted this way back, but I can literally go out with handloads not customized to one of my AR's, a 6.5lb rifle, a non-magnified 2MOA red dot (Aimpoint T2), a really crappy teeth-weld, monopod'ing it off of the magazine, no bags, and reliably shoot at 1.5" group at 100yds. It just seems absurd that the technique would need to be that different for the rigs I've been shooting in this thread.

And honestly, maybe if I can't work out anything else, hand loads are where this will end. I don't know. Only in the past day or two have I started considering that a possibility. But, I'm not nearly ready to go down that road yet.

Yeah the whole hold the barrel down or put pressure on the scope or eat a chicken sandwich prior to going to the range doesn't matter to me. I just wanna shoot it more similar like I would in the field. So I don't shoot from a lead sled anymore (haven't for 3-4 years now). Rather I use I bipod and a rear bag when working up loads. Once I get a consistent 1.5" or better load the rest of the shots are from prone off the pack and sitting for practice.

That AR you got sounds like a good one. Sounds like you got a great handload worked up for it and no stranger to shooting it seems.

Just curious why you would bother to handload for an AR but not a hunting rifle?

I honestly have no idea what is wrong (if anything) with your Tikka.....or Kimber.

 

[Rorschach]

Would rather handload for AR because I shoot about 6,000rds a year. That's a lot of dough to spend on ammo if I was buying it factory. And, I already spend a lot of time reloading, even with load recipes I already have worked out. I'd just rather just buy a couple of boxes of ammo and let that be good, than to spend who knows how much time trying to find a load that works (I've pointed out before the irony of this, given that neither of these rifles just shot 1" out of the box for me, all the experimentation, etc.).

Yeah the whole hold the barrel down or put pressure on the scope or eat a chicken sandwich prior to going to the range doesn't matter to me. I just wanna shoot it more similar like I would in the field. So I don't shoot from a lead sled anymore (haven't for 3-4 years now). Rather I use I bipod and a rear bag when working up loads. Once I get a consistent 1.5" or better load the rest of the shots are from prone off the pack and sitting for practice.

That AR you got sounds like a good one. Sounds like you got a great handload worked up for it and no stranger to shooting it seems.

Just curious why you would bother to handload for an AR but not a hunting rifle?

I honestly have no idea what is wrong (if anything) with your Tikka.....or Kimber.

 

[mt100gr.]

As stated above, get some more of that Hornady Precision Hunter ammo and shoot.

I have a Tikka 30-06 that definitely favors that bullet. I tried corelokts, accubonds, sciroccos, etc that I had on hand while breaking it in and none of them shot as well as that eldx load.

Curious as to you round count with the Tikka too. Both of mine shot better after 60-70 rounds (under an inch and consistent in that the spacing between holes was similar. No "flyers" not that I consider one of 3 or 5 a flyer if they're still inside that magical one inch circle)

Also, my Tikkas perform their best when fouled. I only clean them when I have to and then I try to make sure I get at least 5 rounds through them before hunting with them again. Not sure what your rifle hygiene habits are but I learned this the hard way with my Tikka rifles. I used to clean my guns compulsively and was never happy with the accuracy.

 

[Rorschach]

Thanks for the word. I'm not a compulsive gun cleaner at all. In fact, it's one of those things that I do because I have to, and only then occasionally, and if it looks like the results in terms of accuracy call for it.

I did, however, run an oily patch, then a dry one down the bore of the Tikka before shooting it the first time.

As stated above, get some more of that Hornady Precision Hunter ammo and shoot.

I have a Tikka 30-06 that definitely favors that bullet. I tried corelokts, accubonds, sciroccos, etc that I had on hand while breaking it in and none of them shot as well as that eldx load.

Curious as to you round count with the Tikka too. Both of mine shot better after 60-70 rounds (under an inch and consistent in that the spacing between holes was similar. No "flyers" not that I consider one of 3 or 5 a flyer if they're still inside that magical one inch circle)

Also, my Tikkas perform their best when fouled. I only clean them when I have to and then I try to make sure I get at least 5 rounds through them before hunting with them again. Not sure what your rifle hygiene habits are but I learned this the hard way with my Tikka rifles. I used to clean my guns compulsively and was never happy with the accuracy.

 

[AK Troutbum]

Maybe we can get a little bidding war started between you and bum, if it comes to that.

I don't think so. I've seen a fair number of them go for $900ish on GB and on a couple of occasions I've seen them go for less than that on 24 hour CF.

 

[luke moffat]

I don't think so. I've seen a fair number of them go for $900ish on GB and on a couple of occasions I've seen them go for less than that on 24 hour CF.

Thus my $950 SHIPPED to AK

 

[16Bore]

Shooting is just shooting.

Make sure everything put together correctly on the Tikka, torqued, and shoot one type of ammo with a proper rest. Then see what happens. Some days you can't shoot for shit. Same with golf, same with fishing, yadda, yadda.

Nother wrong with either rifle and don't think that everyone drooling over the "Kimber that doesn't shoot" isn't aware of it.

 

[Jimbob]

This thread has turned into quite the beast and it has been fun to follow along. Probably more frustrating than fun for Rorschach though. Hopefully you reach some conclusions at the end and can share some definitive answers for everyone. I certainly don't see great improvement in the tikka over the Kimber so I am lead to believe that the "lack" of accuracy is not the rifle. Could be scope, mounts, rest or shooter.

As for technique with light weight rifles I shoot off bags with a rear bean bag and do not hold the front of the rifle down. Savage lwh in .243 is sub 6lbs and it shoots less than 0.5 MOA with cheap Winchester ammo with this technique. My Tikka will shoot 1 moa with that technique as well.

 

[Rorschach]

Surely has been frustrating, but at least part of the exercise for me has been attempting to document it a little more thoroughly than what I've been able to find; I've heard lots of talk to the tune of 'mine does this or that' all over the internet, but haven't found a single thread where anyone has actually documented it like this, or anywhere near to the degree that this has been documented.

This thread has turned into quite the beast and it has been fun to follow along. Probably more frustrating than fun for Rorschach though. Hopefully you reach some conclusions at the end and can share some definitive answers for everyone. I certainly don't see great improvement in the tikka over the Kimber so I am lead to believe that the "lack" of accuracy is not the rifle. Could be scope, mounts, rest or shooter.

As for technique with light weight rifles I shoot off bags with a rear bean bag and do not hold the front of the rifle down. Savage lwh in .243 is sub 6lbs and it shoots less than 0.5 MOA with cheap Winchester ammo with this technique. My Tikka will shoot 1 moa with that technique as well.

 

[Trial153]

This thread has made me want to find a T3X in .308 just for the hell of it and I don't even rifle hunt anymore.

 

[Rorschach]

If you do, post it up; I'd love to see the results. Wish I lived near someone on here - best case, I'd love to see someone else shoot these rifles with this ammo and see what happens.

Only shots y'all haven't seen shot through either of these rifles are the 5 sighters I shot on the T3x this past Saturday. That's it.

This thread has made me want to find a T3X in .308 just for the hell of it and I don't even rifle hunt anymore.

 

[mtnwrunner]

Just read through this thing while waiting for the superbowl to start. Man, what a frustrating experience. I wish I was closer-----I would love to take those rifles for a test drive.
I load for 3 tikkas, mine, my brothers and a friend of mine. All shoot better than 1/2 inch and it kills me because I have several customs that are around the 5K mark and the tikkas out shoot them.
In my opinion and of course, that is all it is------I would try shooting some more of that ammo in your best grouping, use a rear bag, try a different scope, and let someone else shoot it. Don't know if all that is possible for you but if this were me, I'd be using both of those rifles for boat paddles.
I had a 340 weatherby that I could just not get to shoot. It would shoot between and inch and an inch and a half and that was it. It was frustrating as hell and I expect more than that----I personally want a rifle to shoot better than a half inch. It went by by and I truly feel your frustration.
SO...................keep at it and you'll get it figured out. As someone else said, you never hear anything like this with a tikka so I would expect it is not the rifle.

Good luck!

Randy

 

[Formidilosus]

So... Am I missing something here, or are people just seeing what they want to see? People keep saying that the Kimber and Tikka shoots "about the same" yet just going by pictures it's not even close...?


Doing rough math on the groups provided and averaged out-

The Kimber averaged about 2.1in for 21 groups. If you take out the biggest group- 2.0 in flat.


The Tikka averaged about 1.4in for 14 groups. If you take out the worst group (huge anomaly) you get 1.22 in or so.


There's a pretty big difference between 1.25in and 2.0 in groups.... Someone might've said the Tikka will probably do 1-1.5 MOA and the Kimber 2-2.5 MOA......

 

[luke moffat]

So... Am I missing something here, or are people just seeing what they want to see? People keep saying that the Kimber and Tikka shoots "about the same" yet just going by pictures it's not even close...?


Doing rough math on the groups provided and averaged out-

The Kimber averaged about 2.1in for 21 groups. If you take out the biggest group- 2.0 in flat.


The Tikka averaged about 1.4in for 14 groups. If you take out the worst group (huge anomaly) you get 1.22 in or so.


There's a pretty big difference between 1.25in and 2.0 in groups.... Someone might've said the Tikka will probably do 1-1.5 MOA and the Kimber 2-2.5 MOA......

I guess I didn't know to toss out the largest groups. I just looked at them over all. 1.4" to 2.1" isn't huge in my mind for my uses and thats how I look at them. Both got a long ways to go to be a true 1 MOA gun though.

Both a failure for the OPs goals. A true 2 MOA gun should keep all the shots inside a 6.3" circle at 300 yards or 3" on average from the point of aim correct? Luckily most of my kill zones are 8" larger.

Some basic vital sizes:
Pronghorn antelope = 8.5"-9"
Small deer = 8.5"-9"
Medium size deer = 10"-11"
Large deer = 11"-12"
North American wild sheep = 12"-13"
Mountain goat = 13"-14.5"
Caribou = 14.5"-15.5"
Elk = 14.5"-15.5"
Moose = 18"-21.5"

 

[16Bore]

I don't put stock in anything I didn't do.

 

[Formidilosus]

Luke,


Personally I would've only worried about what the Hornady ELD-X's did as that bullet does what I want.

Overall I can't see basing a guns performance on ammo that it hates. There was one truly awful 3in "group" from the Tikka, yet several from the Kimber. You are correct on a true 2 MOA being able to keep all shots on a 6in circle at 300. This Tikka will do it with a couple of different types of ammo as shot here. From experience I wouldn't expect this Kimber to do it with but maybe one type as shot here, and likely none. The Tikka will probably do it at 400.


Not that one couldn't kill deer and bigger at 400 with the Kimber...

 

[luke moffat]

Luke,


Personally I would've only worried about what the Hornady ELD-X's did as that bullet does what I want.

Overall I can't see basing a guns performance on ammo that it hates. There was one truly awful 3in "group" from the Tikka, yet several from the Kimber. You are correct on a true 2 MOA being able to keep all shots on a 6in circle at 300. This Tikka will do it with a couple of different types of ammo as shot here. From experience I wouldn't expect this Kimber to do it with but maybe one type as shot here, and likely none. The Tikka will probably do it at 400.


Not that one couldn't kill deer and bigger at 400 with the Kimber...

Agreed!!

 

[Rorschach]

***Update: Second range session with Tikka T3x Superlite (308win).

Rifle: Tikka T3x Superlite 308win

Conditions: Sunny, 35-38degF, no breeze.

Procedure:

Targets were set at 100yds. Fired four 8-shot groups, mostly with ammunition that fired the best groups from previous range session with the T3x.

No period of cooling was allowed during strings, nor between strings. Loaded magazine with 3 rounds, then single fed the last into the chamber, fired all four rounds, then repeated for each string of 8.

Strings of 8 were chosen rather than 10 because I only had 8 of the Precision Hunters left, and wanted to keep all of the groups comparable in terms of number of rounds fired.

All were fired front of the stock resting on a bag. Rear of stock supported by rice-filled sock.​

Types of ammo (all 308win), in order they were fired:

1) Hornady Precision Hunter 178gr
2) Federal Gold Medal Match 7.62x51 175gr
3) Federal Fusion 180gr
4)Barnes Vortex 150gr​

Observations:

First 8-round group was shot with Hornady Precision Hunter ammunition. Group looks to be right at 1moa, with one shot opening the group up from approximately 0.7moa. The first three-shot group of HPH from the previous range session grouped similarly.

The FGMM did not group near as well with eight shots as with three, which is to be reasonably expected. However, I did fire the groups without any waiting period in between, so I'm not sure how much of this can possibly be attributed to heat build-up.

In the interest of time, this morning, all groups were fired without a cool-off period between, and the barrel was quite warm to the touch (uncomfortable to hold) after the fourth string of eight was fired. Tentatively, next range trip, I may wait in between strings for the barrel to cool off totally and see if this influences group size with the ammunition used in this session for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th groups.

The horizontal stringing evident in some groups may be indicative that something is amiss with my rear bag technique. Perhaps putting different amounts of pressure on the stock from string-to-string? I don't know, at this point.

Also, on the next range trip, I will fire the ammo in either a random order or reverse from the order it was fired in here, so as to negate any effects of fatigue or residual barrel heat.

I may place the scope back on the Kimber and try it again with a rear bag since it was never attempted on the first go-around, so that we can have a apples-to-apples comparison with the Tikka on a rear bag.​

Feel free to offer critique, agreement, disagreement, other observations, etc.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I inserted a piece of the target page between the stock and barrel to see where the barrel was touching the stock, and it appears that where the flutes start is where the stock makes contact with the barrel; about 4" forward of the front receiver face.

Links to other range sessions:
Kimber 1 (1/27/17)
Kimber 2 (1/29/17)
Kimber 3 (1/31/17)
Tikka 1 (2/4/17)
Tikka 2 (2/6/17)
Tikka 3 (2/8/17)
Kimber 4 (2/9/17)
Kimber 5 (2/14/17)

Target: