Kimber Montana vs. Tikka T3x Superlite vs. Savage 16 LWH (308)

[Formidilosus]

Below is a demonstration of what I said about multiple 3 round groups versus 1x ten round group.

Tikka T3 SL 223 with MK262 Mod1 (Blackhills 77gr SMK) with SWFA 6x. Prone, bipod, rear bag.


1st three round group

2nd three round group

3rd three round group

All rounds-

1x10 round group fired back to back immeadiately after the above groups.

 

[Rorschach]

Thanks - I'll try the Fusions and definitely the Precision Hunters again, and I bought another couple brands to try out (Sako, Winchester Whitetail, and some Federal Trophy Bonded), just out of curiosity.

I thought that horizontal stringing was strange, myself.

I explained my situation the Vortex CS and they said that I could switch out the scope for another one. Does anyone think that's a good idea to try? I personally kicked this idea yesterday after shooting that 10-round group. If I can sit down and do that again with that ammo, I wouldn't think that there's a way the scope could be the culprit (if indeed there is a culprit).

Holy smokes fellas. Cut the mental and ballistic masturbation. Most seem like they want to go to 73 trick moves just to convince themselves about what their rifle can hit. Here's a clue- if it can't hit a sub-MOA target on demand... It ain't a sub MOA gun. If you have to sprinkle holy water on it, do abrain dance and sacrifice a goat to get it to shoot sub MOA.... it probably ain't.

A properly stress relieved barrel will continue shooting as it's supposed to until it melts. The reason to allow cooling is to save throat erosion. There may be some loss of precision on a small scale, but unless there is something seriously wrong with the gun it isn't going to cause it to go from 1 MOA to 3 MOA.

The reason that people shoot "3 shot groups" has absolutely nothing to do with it being applicable to measuring the actual precision of the gun, and everything to do with trying to say they "have a sub MOA" gun... "when I do my part".

Take a gun. Fire 10 rounds at a target. Save the target. Hang an identical target. Fire one round or three. Save the target. Hang the same target up and shoot another round or three at it. Take it down. Repeat until you have 10 rounds on the target. It will look suspiciously like the 10 rounds fired back to back.



Its easy-

1) Ensure that the rifle is assembled correctly
2) From 100 yards with a good front and rear rest
3) Fire 10 rounds
4) Measure


That single 10 round group will give you a very high percentage of where any one round will land. If you fire a second 10 round group it's something like a 98% probability.

Of course it really helps to not have to worry about optic problems, mount problems, etc.







Rorshach,

There definitely looks to be something squirrelly with some of the ammo, as I've shot a bunch of Fusiins for instance and haven't had them shoot like that, but if the Hornady keeps shooting as it does I'd buy a case of 178gr Precision Hunters and go. That is the single bullet I would choose for the 308 anyways, and it will kill every land animal in NA.

 

[JWP58]

Target:

If you aren't happy with the center group, you're not going to be happy. I would suggest buying a few boxes in the same lot number of the hornady's, stop worrying about a scope issue, and begin practicing for real world hunting situations (if you can ring a 10" steel gong on your first shot at X distance from a field type rest, you can kill just about anything).

I feel you are searching for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[Rorschach]

I'm more than happy with that center group. And, I will shoot other groups to confirm that that performance is repeatable.

However, if the other groups on that target you included are indicative of some sort of issue with a scope or anything else (including myself), don't you think that would be pertinent and desirable information to know? That is what is driving some of my questions at this point. If it's an issue, I'd like to know about it and have a chance to fix it, if possible.

Having more types of ammo that shoot well can't be a bad thing, correct? If not possible, it's not possible, but if so, that'd be my preference.

If you aren't happy with the center group, you're not going to be happy. I would suggest buying a few boxes in the same lot number of the hornady's, stop worrying about a scope issue, and begin practicing for real world hunting situations (if you can ring a 10" steel gong on your first shot at X distance from a field type rest, you can kill just about anything).

I feel you are searching for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[16Bore]

Who knows what may or may not have crept in, but 178 the thing and forget about it.

Try shooting some groups at 6x, for shits and giggles.

 

[robtattoo]

I'm more than happy with that center group. And, I will shoot other groups to confirm that that performance is repeatable.

However, if the other groups on that target you included are indicative of some sort of issue with a scope or anything else (including myself), don't you think that would be pertinent and desirable information to know? That is what is driving some of my questions at this point. If it's an issue, I'd like to know about it and have a chance to fix it, if possible.

Having more types of ammo that shoot well can't be a bad thing, correct? If not possible, it's not possible, but if so, that'd be my preference.

I think the only thing the other groups indicate us that your particular rifle doesn't care for those loads, is all.
I'd be interested to see each load shot over a chrono. Every rifle I've loaded for seems to like a particular velocity bracket. Much above or below that bracket & my group sizes open up to varying degrees.

 

[JWP58]

.

However, if the other groups on that target you included are indicative of some sort of issue with a scope or anything else (including myself), don't you think that would be pertinent and desirable information to know? That is what is driving some of my questions at this point. If it's an issue, I'd like to know about it and have a chance to fix it, if possible.

.

If it was a scope issue, you would've known within the first group. If its a "you problem", go practice with something cheaper than $40 a box 308win and see if its you.

What are you looking for? One hole groups at 100 and .25" groups at 400yds? If that's what you want, maybe a GAP or some other 4k precision rig is what you should be looking for.

 

[Rorschach]

Okay, that's what I would've thought with the first group on that page.

0.25" groups at 400yds? Nah - I said I was more than happy with that group. And, I thought I explained the rest adequately. If there's an issue (which, in my limited experience, I can't understand how there would be, after grouping like those 8 rounds of HPH did), then I want to know about it. That's all.

Again, that first group is more than good enough. If the others are indicative of some sort of issue, I'd just want to know about it and have a chance to address it. Seems reasonable to me.

Thanks for contributing.

If it was a scope issue, you would've known within the first group. If its a "you problem", go practice with something cheaper than $40 a box 308win and see if its you.

What are you looking for? One hole groups at 100 and .25" groups at 400yds? If that's what you want, maybe a GAP or some other 4k precision rig is what you should be looking for.

 

[JWP58]

Again, that first group is more than good enough. If the others are indicative of some sort of issue, I'd just want to know about it and have a chance to address it. Seems reasonable to me.

Thanks for contributing.

I would say its indicative of your gun not shooting them very well. Some barrels like certain loads, and don't like certain loads.

 

[Rorschach]

Agreed.

 

[Blockcaver]

And if you reloaded for the Kimber it is highly likely you'd find a load that it likes too......it took some testing to find a good load my 7-08 Montana. You just haven't hit on it in the factory offerings in my opinion.

 

[16Bore]

I'd blame it on the Rice-a-Roni rear rest and fatigue. Either way, just do as I do: lower your expectations. 80% results with 20% effort.

 

[luke moffat]

Either way, just do as I do: lower your expectations. 80% results with 20% effort.

Haha I hear that for sure!

 

[robtattoo]

I'd blame it on the Rice-a-Roni rear rest and fatigue. Either way, just do as I do: lower your expectations. 80% results with 20% effort.

That's how I got married....

 

[Rorschach]

What qualities differentiate a desirable rear rest from others?

I'd blame it on the Rice-a-Roni rear rest and fatigue. Either way, just do as I do: lower your expectations. 80% results with 20% effort.

 

[16Bore]

The ass factor.

Place a milk jug at 300 yards and settle the crosshairs on it. Then lift your head off the rifle and look at your buddy and say "watch this ". As soon as he looks at you, don't lose eye contact with him and squeeze the trigger. Milk jug go boom.

He'll likely call you an ass, or some other derogatory name.

Or.

Basically it's gonna hug the butt of the rifle and keep stuff from being squishy squashy as you shoot. And a little squeeze on the bag will nudge things a bit to get the scope on target.

Leather Gun Rests : Protektor Model Company, The Original Leather Rifle and Pistol Rests


Now the bench rest boys will tell you all about powdering your bag and waxing your bag and all that crap. Buncha wierdos.


Trick is to take as much "you" outta the equation. Eventually you'll be cutting X's off whatever you can lynthe rifle on.


Just my experience.

 

[16Bore]

Oh, and don't try the milk jug trick with a heavy kicker, or you might be picking it (or your teeth) off the ground.

 

[JWW]

For what it's worth I made my rear bags from plastic beads and canvas. They work great and cost next to nothing.

 

[16Bore]

Trust me when I tell you that sand filled leather is worth every penny.

 

[Rorschach]

Tikka T3x Superlite 308win: Third range session, 2/8/2017

***Update: Third range session with Tikka T3x Superlite (308win).

Rifle: Tikka T3x Superlite 308win

Conditions: Sunny, 52-55degF, no breeze.

Procedure:

Targets were set at 100yds. Fired two 8-shot groups and one 4-shot group (truncated this one because it was performing so poorly from the initial four shots).

A period of cooling was allowed between all strings. Loaded magazine with 3 rounds, then single fed the last into the chamber, fired all four rounds, then repeated for each string of 8. For the 4-shot group, I loaded 3 in the magazine, then put the last one directly into the chamber.

Strings of 8 were chosen rather than 10 so that the results of the Federal Gold Medal Match and Hornady Precision Hunter ammo could be compared with those same groups as in the previous range session, which were 8-round groups (due to having run out of the Precision Hunter ammo).

All were fired front of the stock resting on a bag. Rear of stock supported by rice-filled sock.​

Types of ammo (all 308win), in order they were fired:

1) Federal Gold Medal Match 7.62x51 175gr
2) Hornady Precision Hunter 178gr
3) Federal Premium Vital Shok, 165gr​

Observations:

Fired the FGMM 175gr first since, at the previous session, I'd fired it second. Just introducing a little randomization there. However, I allowed the barrel to cool this time between groups. The first four rounds went into a tiny cluster, then, after reloading, the fifth round was the top round in the center group, opening it up to ~1.3". Then, the others went back down into the ~1" cluster below it.

The Hornady Precision Hunter 178gr again did pretty well. Eight shots into ~1.6" group, evenly distributed. Not quite as well as in the first test in this rifle, but there it is.

The Federal Premium Vital Shock ammunition performed so poorly with the first four shots that I decided not to complete firing the remaining four rounds.

In the interest of full disclosure, I do believe at least some of my issues in previous sessions could have been the lack of an absolutely perfect natural point of aim (NPA). It stands to reason that these light rifles could be a little more sensitive to NPA than rifles weighing almost 2x as much.

I may place the scope back on the Kimber and try it again with a rear bag since it was never attempted on the first go-around, so that we can have a apples-to-apples comparison with the Tikka on a rear bag.​

Feel free to offer critique, agreement, disagreement, other observations, etc.

Links to other range sessions:
Kimber 1 (1/27/17)
Kimber 2 (1/29/17)
Kimber 3 (1/31/17)
Tikka 1 (2/4/17)
Tikka 2 (2/6/17)
Tikka 3 (2/8/17)
Kimber 4 (2/9/17)
Kimber 5 (2/14/17)

Target: