Kimber Montana vs. Tikka T3x Superlite vs. Savage 16 LWH (308)

[JWW]

Gothcha. And I didn't mean it to come off dickish when I wrote it.


I don't do the Sled. One it cracks stocks on heavier recoil guns, very often the zero is different than from the shoulder, and it also tends to string shots.

No worries, everyone here probably knows more than I do about shooting. I have been lucky to have some good shooters help me and my cheapo plastic factory gun groups very well. I just can't help but think these really nice guns could group very nicely if shot from a decent rest with a load they like. And if they just don't shoot well, why is anyone buying them?

 

[JWW]

Form, I've read several separate sources now say that the barrels aren't free-floated (they have tabs partway up the stock that contact the barrel), but I'm not super-confident in the veracity of that information. Can anyone else confirm?

I have a few different ammo makes/types that I have enough left of to try 10-round groups using (Superformance, Fusions, FGMM), and I will try to find some more Precision Hunter. For the rest, where the ammo permits, I will try to shift to 5-round groups. I'll say I'm done with the 3-rd groups, at this point then.

Will definitely do the rear bag next time out and see what happens. My wobble zone is pretty tiny, but will definitely be smaller with a rear bag. I had enough jacket on this morning with the cool temps that I couldn't see my heartbeat in the reticle's movement at all. I was set up pretty solid, even with manually supporting the rear of the stock.

JWW, what do you mean that my "point-of-aim is not easily repeatable" since I'm not using a rear bag? Are you saying that 1/8" (or less, as measured at 100yds on target) of wobble zone improvement has the potential to decrease grouping by 1"?

Depending on your barrel length, 1/8" of muzzle wobble can move a group way more than 1 inch at 100 yards.

 

[Rorschach]

1/8" as measured at 100yds on target, meaning that the reticle moves 1/8" against the target. Not the muzzle itself moving 1/8".

Edit: This has nothing to do with what I'm describing, but to try and demonstrate that I know what I'm talking about, 1/8" movement at the muzzle would equate to ~11" movement on the target at 100yds with a 42" total length, and pivot point being where the stock meets the shoulder. ( [100yds x 3ft/yd x 12in/ft]/42in x 0.125in = 10.7in )

 

[16Bore]

Some barrels like a float, some like tip pressure. Wedge a few business cards between the barrel and stock and see.

Don't count out scope parallax.

 

[Rorschach]

Scope has side focus, which I set then check (by placing the rifle on bags and moving my eye around the eye box to attempt to observe parallax, or verify the absence of parallax).

Don't count out scope parallax.

 

[Formidilosus]

Rorschach,

Some are floated and some aren't. Run a piece of paper down the barrel and see.

 

[JWW]

1/8" as measured at 100yds on target, meaning that the reticle moves 1/8" against the target. Not the muzzle itself moving 1/8".

Edit: This has nothing to do with what I'm describing, but to try and demonstrate that I know what I'm talking about, 1/8" movement at the muzzle would equate to ~11" movement on the target at 100yds with a 42" total length, and pivot point being where the stock meets the shoulder. ( [100yds x 3ft/yd x 12in/ft]/42in x 0.125in = 10.7in )

While 1/8" as viewed on target is a fraction of 1/8" muzzle movement, the same principle applies to any angular equation involving a projectile. If you know your point of aim is shifting, you cannot possibly expect an optimal grouping.

 

[Rorschach]

It's going to shift some, hence "wobble zone". Yeah?

While 1/8" as viewed on target is a fraction of 1/8" muzzle movement, the same principle applies to any angular equation involving a projectile. If you know your point of aim is shifting, you cannot possibly expect an optimal grouping.

 

[Yellowknife]

Those are some highly inconsistent results compared to my tikka experience. With the random flyer in various different directions, it's hard to see it as a gun issue. Particularly with Kimberly doing similar things.

I'd seriously be swapping another known too be good scope onto that thing. Just because it's new, doesn't mean it's good.

Or if that's not easy, do like Form says and shoot a 7-10 shot group with one of your "good" loads. If you eventually throw large fliers with the Eldx or GMM loads... both of which are top quality stuff, then something is loose, and it's probably not the gun.


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[JWW]

It's going to shift some, hence "wobble zone". Yeah?

Haha. Yes, clearly. After you put a rear bag on and shoot the same loads for more than 3 groups we can lay all speculation to rest. If it still groups like crap, then you know.

 

[Rorschach]

10-4; will try.

Haha. Yes, clearly. After you put a rear bag on and shoot the same loads for more than 3 groups we can lay all speculation to rest. If it still groups like crap, then you know.

 

[Rorschach]

Man, what are the chances I got two freaking lemons?

I don't have another scope with a 1" tube, unfortunately. The one I got is from Optics Planet. I don't know their return policy, but it seems like it'd be a real pain, possibly, to go about some sort of procedure to verify with them that the scope is probably the issue here, if that's even how their return policy works.

Those are some highly inconsistent results compared to my tikka experience. With the random flyer in various different directions, it's hard to see it as a gun issue. Particularly with Kimberly doing similar things.

I'd seriously be swapping another known too be good scope onto that thing. Just because it's new, doesn't mean it's good.

Or if that's not easy, do like Form says and shoot a 7-10 shot group with one of your "good" loads. If you eventually throw large fliers with the Eldx or GMM loads... both of which are top quality stuff, then something is loose, and it's probably not the gun.


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[Yellowknife]

It's a Vortex right? If you can't get it to shoot right, just send it direct back to them. From what I understand, they just send you another.


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[JWW]

Man, what are the chances I got two freaking lemons?

I don't have another scope with a 1" tube, unfortunately. The one I got is from Optics Planet. I don't know their return policy, but it seems like it'd be a real pain, possibly, to go about some sort of procedure to verify with them that the scope is probably the issue here, if that's even how their return policy works.

Can you borrow one from someone in your area? I may have missed it but do you use a torque wrench like the fat wrench? I've seen a few friends with everything from loose rings, bases and action screws that caused less than desirable results. The torque wrench was a quick way to verify, one friends Savage in 6.5 creedmoor continually bucks the action screw even after loc tite.

 

[AK Troutbum]

It's a Vortex right?
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Well shit, that's the problem right there, you bought a Chinese scope! Pull that POS off, put some European glass on there, and start punching out that bullseye!



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[Rorschach]

Always use a torque wrench (in this case, a Wheeler FAT).

Can you borrow one from someone in your area? I may have missed it but do you use a torque wrench like the fat wrench? I've seen a few friends with everything from loose rings, bases and action screws that caused less than desirable results. The torque wrench was a quick way to verify, one friends Savage in 6.5 creedmoor continually bucks the action screw even after loc tite.

 

[Rorschach]

I'll check around and see who has another scope with 1" tube. Doubtful that I know anyone willing to pull one off their rifles if they do even have a 1" tube.

However, before I switch scopes, I'm going to try with a rear bag, as several have suggested, and shoot higher round-count groups (5's with stuff I'm low on, and possibly some 10's with others).

Does that sound reasonable as a first course of action?

It is indeed a Vortex (Razor HD LH 3-15x42), Yellow. Will Vortex still cooperate even if I let them know the situation, i.e., I don't know for a fact that it's their optic causing the issue, but that I have behavior indicative of a problem with some component of the system?

Well shit, that's the problem right there, you bought a Chinese scope! Pull that POS off, put some European glass on there, and start punching out that bullseye!

 

[Rorschach]

I contacted Vortex's service department via email, disclosed the full situation, and asked them what could be done, as far as swapping scopes out to eliminate this as a possible source of the issue.

Will report back with what they say when I receive a response.

 

[16Bore]

Putting in way too many variables to ascertain anything.

 

[Rorschach]

Say what? I'm only changing one thing at a time; scope, rest, etc., and testing each of them over many different kinds of ammunition.

Putting in way too many variables to ascertain anything.