Kimber Montana vs. Tikka T3x Superlite vs. Savage 16 LWH (308)

[Bobbyboe]

I'm not a shooting expert, but it sure seems like the groups began opening up the warmer, or more rounds you shot.

As I said before, stick with the hornady's and you'll be happy.

 

[Rorschach]

I thought it looked like they were mostly equally bad groups, after that first one.

 

[Jason Snyder]

When I'm testing loads I will shoot them in sequences of one round per test group and repeat for s total of five rounds per group. So, for example one Hornaday, one Federal, one Nosler, one Barnes , each on its own bullseye. Repeat.

Edit: this helps sort out shooter fatigue and barrel heating (if you are tracking shot numbers).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wapitibob]

^^ this was recommended to me as well and it works.

A 300 yard round robin test:

 

[rileybassman]

Seems like a lot of barrel heat... my groups really open up after 5-6 rounds and i start getting stringing... and that is with a floated barrel and proven sub MOA ammo etc.

I really have yet to see or shoot a sporter barrel that could keep that many shots super tight in succession... YMMV.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Jason Snyder]

I'll take target #3 Alex.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wapitibob]

I did LOL

 

[Rorschach]

I've done load dev many times before and always do round robin shooting. I honestly don't know what I was thinking - completely forgot that this was a thing while shooting these groups, from the very beginning.

Will definitely do this next time. Thanks!

Also - another thing I forgot to mention that Form suggested, is checking whether or not, and how far, the barrel is free-floated. I placed one thickness of target paper between the barrel and stock, and it slides freely up until about 4" from the front face of the receiver, just where the barrel flutes begin on the Superlite.

So, there it is, FYI.

 

[BigWoods]

Rorschach, I've very much enjoyed following your documentation throughout.

With others, I fear what your 8 round targets might be proving is that light barrels don't shoot well hot...at quite a cost nonetheless. If I were looking for consistency with a hot barrel for shooting prairie dogs I think that might be helpful...but not necessarily for big game (where 2 or 3 shots is generally more than enough).

From reading the forums, it seems like most of the guys putting down sub MOA 3 -shot groups out of their Kimbers (because that's what I've been reading on) are spacing each shot by the better part of a minute then giving adequate cool down time before the next group. I might be corrected on this, but it seems that placing a series of 3-round groups (say 3 or 4) with the same load but with adequate cooling time between shots, could prove just as well what a 10rd group does - only without the heat issues. If all 3 or 4 groupings hit in the same area respective to point of aim and measure the same, you should have the data you need. That is to say, if my rifle can put down 1 MOA groups 90% of the time I point it at paper, I can be pretty confident it will do that when needed.

Thanks for your work on this.

 

[16Bore]

Be curious what the 178's do the next go around if the shooting order was reversed.

 

[Rorschach]

I'm deliberating on either doing round-robin testing the next time, or just allowing time for the rifle to cool completely between groups of 10 (or 8, again).

My rationale is that, if heat matters to this barrel and others like it, then round-robin shooting would result in awful groups no matter what ammunition was fired, if all of the rounds were fire back-to-back as in the test run today.

Otherwise, if all groups were fired with time in between each group, then heat wouldn't be a factor in opening up any group, presumably.

Make sense?

 

[16Bore]

I don't do round robins and ladders. Not my thing. Horizontal makes me scope nervous and fatigue shows its head sooner than some think.

If it were me, I'd buy a case of the 178's and forget about the rest.

But that's me and I don't have the patience to monkey with stuff in that kinda manner anymore.

 

[Rorschach]

Scope nervous? As in, it is indicative of an issue with the scope?

I don't do round robins and ladders. Not my thing. Horizontal makes me scope nervous and fatigue shows its head sooner than some think.

If it were me, I'd buy a case of the 178's and forget about the rest.

But that's me and I don't have the patience to monkey with stuff in that kinda manner anymore.

 

[16Bore]

The first group doesn't say anything but "buy more 178's". My experience has been horizontal is scope/mounts, or parallax. Vertical is bedding.

 

[Rorschach]

Is there a relatively possible way the first group could be like it is with scope/mount issues, in your experience?

The first group doesn't say anything but "buy more 178's". My experience has been horizontal is scope/mounts, or parallax. Vertical is bedding.

 

[16Bore]

Who knows. Anything is possible. This is the point where I start taking things apart and looking for rub marks and such. I have seen Tikkas taken apart and not reassembled correctly and just kinda sitting on the lug.

But 32 rounds of 308 on a 6# rifle would takes its toll.

 

[Formidilosus]

Holy smokes fellas. Cut the mental and ballistic masturbation. Most seem like they want to go to 73 trick moves just to convince themselves about what their rifle can hit. Here's a clue- if it can't hit a sub-MOA target on demand... It ain't a sub MOA gun. If you have to sprinkle holy water on it, do abrain dance and sacrifice a goat to get it to shoot sub MOA.... it probably ain't.

A properly stress relieved barrel will continue shooting as it's supposed to until it melts. The reason to allow cooling is to save throat erosion. There may be some loss of precision on a small scale, but unless there is something seriously wrong with the gun it isn't going to cause it to go from 1 MOA to 3 MOA.

The reason that people shoot "3 shot groups" has absolutely nothing to do with it being applicable to measuring the actual precision of the gun, and everything to do with trying to say they "have a sub MOA" gun... "when I do my part".

Take a gun. Fire 10 rounds at a target. Save the target. Hang an identical target. Fire one round or three. Save the target. Hang the same target up and shoot another round or three at it. Take it down. Repeat until you have 10 rounds on the target. It will look suspiciously like the 10 rounds fired back to back.



Its easy-

1) Ensure that the rifle is assembled correctly
2) From 100 yards with a good front and rear rest
3) Fire 10 rounds
4) Measure


That single 10 round group will give you a very high percentage of where any one round will land. If you fire a second 10 round group it's something like a 98% probability.

Of course it really helps to not have to worry about optic problems, mount problems, etc.







Rorshach,

There definitely looks to be something squirrelly with some of the ammo, as I've shot a bunch of Fusiins for instance and haven't had them shoot like that, but if the Hornady keeps shooting as it does I'd buy a case of 178gr Precision Hunters and go. That is the single bullet I would choose for the 308 anyways, and it will kill every land animal in NA.

 

[16Bore]

Read this and see if you feel better. Or worse.

How Much Does Group Size Matter? - PrecisionRifleBlog.com

 

[Formidilosus]

This was the third 10 round group fired back to back from this 7/08 Tikka T3 Lite. The barrel was hot enough that water sizzled.

 

[16Bore]

That looks more Tikka'ish to me..