Kimber Montana vs. Tikka T3x Superlite vs. Savage 16 LWH (308)

[16Bore]

You shot 10 types of ammo and weren't sure about the scope or rest. I've had several of both rifles and not near those results. Something as simple as the scope mounts will throw it all out the window. Action screws could be hitting the bolt head, mounting screws hitting the shank, who knows.

Both of my Tikkas were shooting inside 3/4" in less than a handful of rounds. NIB 270 Montana floated around an inch in under 10. All with factory ammo. No cleaning or "cooling" or any of that stuff.

 

[Rorschach]

What are you suggesting I should do? I wish I'd had your experience where it was shooting inside 3/4" within 10rds. Gotta start somewhere, and for me that was going to be, at the next range trip, to use a rear bag.

 

[luke moffat]

What are you suggesting I should do?

Take any of those factory loads from either rifle and keep your distance sub 300 yards and rock on.....

 

[Rorschach]

Per the stated goal of this entire endeavor, that's not an acceptable outcome, though. I'd sell the rifles and go back to a $400 rifle before I'd let it stop here. Started with a goal and I'm not there.

Wanted to know what 16Bore was saying I should do, since he pointed out that he thought I was changing too many things at once (one variable doesn't seem like too many, to me - hard to get much less, at least). A big part of my job is designing experiments and series of experiments to root out problems with designs, so I'm not a noob at this, which is why his comment puzzled me somewhat.

Take any of those factory loads from either rifle and keep your distance sub 300 yards and rock on.....

 

[luke moffat]

Per the stated goal of this entire endeavor, that's not an acceptable outcome, though. I'd sell the rifles and go back to a $400 rifle before I'd let it stop here. Started with a goal and I'm not there.

Wanted to know what 16Bore was saying I should do, since he pointed out that he thought I was changing too many things at once (one variable doesn't seem like too many, to me - hard to get much less, at least). A big part of my job is designing experiments and series of experiments to root out problems with designs, so I'm not a noob at this, which is why his comment puzzled me somewhat.

So what are you gonna change first....using a rear bag or swapping the scope? Or shooting 5 round groups instead of 3? Or do this on the Tikka or the Kimber for these changes first?

How much for the 3 MOA Kimber?

 

[Bubba]

Own a tikka T3 300 wan and love it! But I have started to look at rifles. I have a buddy who showed me the Browning X bolt hells canyon long range rifle! It's a heavy rifle. So I looked into the browning X bolt hells canyon speed. It's a lighter gun and come in all calibers. You should take a look at it. Can't go wrong with the kimber or tikka.


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[Bubba]

Own a tikka T3 300 wsm and love it! But I have started to look at rifles. I have a buddy who showed me the Browning X bolt hells canyon long range rifle! It's a heavy rifle. So I looked into the browning X bolt hells canyon speed. It's a lighter gun and come in all calibers. You should take a look at it. Can't go wrong with the kimber or tikka.


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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rorschach]

I thought I said this up there - next time I go to the range, I'm going to use a rear bag; I have no other scope to try that's 1".

Since very little can be ascertained by 3-shot groups, moving up to 5-shot groups (or even 10-shot) will only yield more data; increasing group size will not confound the 'results' of 3-shot group testing, precisely because those 'results' are of dubious value to begin with, statistically. So, this technically doesn't qualify as changing a variable. Just gives more reliable results and thus conclusions.

Only doing any of this with the Tikka, at the moment. If the results are way better than initially observed, I may try the same things (or a subset of those things) on the Montana. Of course, firing more shots per group isn't going to improve the results of group size, but rather will yield more reliable conclusions. E.g., if the 5-shot group is smaller than the 3-shot group, then it is more probable that whatever variable was changed in that test had a positive impact on accuracy. If the 5-shot group is the same as the 3-shot group, then it's more probable that the 3-shot group, in that particular instance, happened to reflect the actual accuracy of the rifle. If the 5-shot group is larger than the 3-shot group, then it's more probable that the 5-shot group is reflective of the rifle's accuracy potential.

I think I see what 16Bore was saying a little more clearly, on re-reading his comment, namely, that I did all this without being 'sure' about the scope or rest. 1) I don't have immediately available another 1" tubed scope (nor rings to fit a 30mm scope on a Tikka), and I assumed that it would be a relatively low probability risk that a brand new scope would be performing poorly, vs. a rifle with the reputation of the Kimber (i.e., at times it has been spotty with regards to accuracy), and 2) I am sure about the rest, in that I've shot every other rifle I've owned - and I've owned other rifles that would reliably shoot groups (with my hand loads) a fraction of the size of the groups these two rifles have shot on average - in the same manner as described throughout this series of experiments, without it causing an issue.

That doesn't mean I'm closed to 1) the optic being the culprit (as I posted up there, that is one of the potential sources of the issue that I'd like to rule out), nor to 2) using a rear bag to eliminate movement (again, as posted previously, I will use a rear bag next time).

 

[Rorschach]

Just wondering - i.e., not being a smart butt - are you indeed agreeing that something is wrong with the Kimber?

How much for the 3 MOA Kimber?

 

[luke moffat]

Just wondering - i.e., not being a smart butt - are you indeed agreeing that something is wrong with the Kimber?

Only if you are admitting there is something wrong with the Tikka too. Groups aren't MUCH better like several folks have said. I see a 3" groups from both rifles and most groups being in the 1.5-2" group range from both. So yeah not too worried about anything being "WRONG" with either rifle.

 

[Rorschach]

You upset, man? Seems like there might be some sarcasm or something there. I really don't have any skin in the game whatsoever, with regards to either rifle. They could both be great or both be crap, I don't care in terms of something that might make me want one to be better or worse, so I don't really understand your comment.

It also seems like you may be saying that I'm the issue. I've stated before that I'm totall 100% open to this being a possibility. No problem with that whatsoever. It's just reality, facts, etc.

Just don't want anyone getting upset, and your post read a little like you are upset.

Only if you are admitting there is something wrong with the Tikka too. Groups aren't MUCH better like several folks have said. I see a 3" groups from both rifles and most groups being in the 1.5-2" group range from both. So yeah not too worried about anything being "WRONG" with either rifle.

 

[AK Troutbum]

How much for the 3 MOA Kimber?

I got one eye on this thread and eye on the classified's.

 

[Rorschach]

Yeah, the reason I asked him about the 3moa comment is because it seemed a little insincere, given what he said both in the subsequent post and in previous posts, that he'd be happy with a 1.5moa rifle (and most of those groups are 1.5-2moa). Not sure though. Seems like he's concluded something is wrong with it by referring to it as 3moa, but elsewhere he says he'd be fine with it shooting the way it does.

Edit: Therefore, if I was to sell it to someone who says they'd be perfectly fine with it and it performs as expected, there's no way I'd dock the price just because it doesn't perform up to my expectations for it (which, were probably errant from the get-go).

I got one eye on this thread and eye on the classified's.

 

[luke moffat]

You upset, man? Seems like there might be some sarcasm or something there. I really don't have any skin in the game whatsoever, with regards to either rifle. They could both be great or both be crap, I don't care in terms of something that might make me want one to be better or worse, so I don't really understand your comment.

It also seems like you may be saying that I'm the issue. I've stated before that I'm totall 100% open to this being a possibility. No problem with that whatsoever. It's just reality, facts, etc.

Just don't want anyone getting upset, and your post read a little like you are upset.

Not upset at all. Just looking to capitalize on a potential good deal thats all.

Not saying you are the problem at all. I hope you get one of the them to work for ya certainly. I would hate to see you be disappointed as it sucks when you don't wind up with want you are striving for and have been down that road with other gear and it sucks.

You want a sub 6 pound rifle to shoot 1" groups everytime with factory load and don't even care which kind of bullet you use to get there. Like I stated the Kimber likely isn't the one to get if thats your end goal especially if not wanting to handload for it.

Personally I'd rather reload the bullet I want to use (quality bonded bullets or partitions) and get 1.5" groups every time (often times better) than use some fusions or SSTs at 1" but to each their own.

The 3 MOA thing was sarcasm certainly and I failed to put a after it and I apologize for that. And yeah if you can get the price you want to sell it for then great. I will see what you list it for and go from there...But I have yet to pay more than $950 for a used Kimber Montana and don't plan to start now.

 

[Rorschach]

Luke - I don't know if there's anything wrong with the Tikka. We only really say that "X rifle is a Y-moa rifle" because of how we measure group size (i.e., extreme spread vs. average-to-center). The Tikka obviously shot differently, although 'better', 'worse', or 'same' can be argued about. However, if you were to measure the group sizes with an average-to-center, standard deviation, etc., type of method, you'd get a better result with the Tikka (since it's two close together and 1 far out).

Either way, I don't know what's wrong with what, or if there even is anything wrong. I've always said that I'm open to being the issue. That's at least a possibility because I've never shot rifles quite this light, and at least some who have experience with it says that it requires a different technique (although that seems to be arguable too).

Only if you are admitting there is something wrong with the Tikka too. Groups aren't MUCH better like several folks have said. I see a 3" groups from both rifles and most groups being in the 1.5-2" group range from both. So yeah not too worried about anything being "WRONG" with either rifle.

 

[Rorschach]

Maybe we can get a little bidding war started between you and bum, if it comes to that.

 

[luke moffat]

I personally don't put much stock in the different technique thing. Lighter rifles are just harder to hold steady than heavy ones and it just takes trigger time to get used to them. Granted I only shoot 200 rounds a year through my Kimbers. But my 223s are 6 pound rifles as well and they are a lot of fun to practice with and shoot those quite a bit more as of the last year or so and certainly get me more used to shooting light rifles.

I agree the Tikka has shot a bit better....just find it funny that both have a 3 MOA group with each and most are still 1" more with both but one is MUCH better than the other as stated but a couple of them.

Like I said I hope you find a setup that works for ya and don't have to sell both and revert to your accurate $400 rifle, but in the end its you that has to be satisfied of course and again wish you all the best in your endeavor.

 

[luke moffat]

Maybe we can get a little bidding war started between you and bum, if it comes to that.

HAHA well played sir I like your style.

I'll start it right now...$950 shipped best and final. I'll let him out bid me from there.

 

[Rorschach]

And, Luke, on the Tikka - do you have a theory as to what could be happening to produce those results? I'm sincerely asking. Are those results what you would personally expect, as well, with factory ammo?

I'm not happy to use any bullet, but I think I'd generally be happy with most 'hunting' bullets if I could find any that would print 1" or less. Unreasonable? I mean, I'd lean towards Fusions or any of the solids (GMX, TSX, TTSX, etc.), but if it has a reputation for decent performance, I'm fine with it. I just shot the SST's because I already had several boxes of those (Superformance).

 

[JWP58]

I'd buy some more of that hornady precision hunter and practice more. Nothing wrong with that group.