Is the 6.8 western gaining traction or did the 7mm prc finish it off?

[Lou270]

I’m trying to, and have been addressing the OP’s question and not trying to argue. The 7PRC didn’t finish off the 6.8W, the 6.8w never really got traction to begin with. It is in no man’s land- to much recoil for comp/shooting with sub par bullets, and pure older hunters don’t buy new rifles/cartriges and they don’t shoot enough.
It’s a well designed, and quite frankly a well balanced cartridge and caliber, but it’s stuck in a place with the smallest segment in the major markets- it’s too large for competition/fun shooting round, doesn’t have the projectiles available for true long range shooting, and hunters that want a .277 don’t buy many new rifles, and almost no ammo.
So the 6.8W is trying to work on the market that is tiny- hunters that don’t care about max LR bullet performance but do want a “magnum”, don’t care that factory ammo is relatively uncommon locally and expensive- the cheapest ammo made if almost $60 a box, the “good” ammo is almost $70; they reload, but don’t care that bullets optimized for the 6.8w are in short supply, and the for some reason want a .277. Of the type of person that wants all of that, how many buy new rifles in the latest chamberings?

Now flip that to why the 6.5 and 7PRC are, and will last- excellent widely available bullets that have very high BC’s and kill very well, excellent factory ammo that is readily available from multiple manufactures and is available for sub $40 box, with the parent company well known for supporting their creations; BC leading projectiles are everywhere, brass is readily available- everywhere you look you can see 6.5 and 7mm PRC supplies- and the 7PRC is one year old. Hornady shipped ammo out in stores before the rifles were available- that’s how you support a cartridge.



My personal feelings are that the 6.8W is a great magnum cartridge, .277 is largely an American thing which is cool. BUT, the support isn’t there for it. I am pragmatic before I am nostalgic and choosing between two cartridges that recoil virtually the same- one has better bullets, better support, better factory ammo, and a more dedicated parent company.

I hope 6.8W takes off, but the niche for magnum hunting cartridges has shrunk dramatically in the last 10 years, and is still shrinking. THAT is what the other manufacturers and older traditional hunters haven’t figured out. All the magnum hunting cartridges that don’t have a legit competition or military use will start disappearing as older people stop participating or die off. The days of boomers controlling the market with magnum hunting cartridges and high MV’s with parachute BC bullets are over.

I don’t disagree much with what saying except that the 270 win still well outsells the prcs. It may not for some smaller niche makers but not with big guys unless they are selling vast amounts of one load online. Cabelas has stacks of 270 on shelf vs 2-3 varieties of 6.5 prc and none of 7 prc. Online they have 29 types 270 in stock, 7 6.5 prc, and 1 7prc and 1 6.8W. During and after the pandemic 270 was one of first to come back - well before saw anything PRC. Now, new rifle sales - I have no doubt the 6.5 prc is in the lead and all of these rounds are miniscule compared to 6.5 cm. This is not knocking the PRC but they have been popular for couple of years and the 270 held the same spot for 100 years (which is somewhere after the ubers like 223, 308, 30-06, and now 6.5cm) but still in top 3-7)

I too hope the 6.8W keeps going. While I am not as pessimistic at its chances to do ok the next several years will tell. The one thing that came to light for me out of this conversation is that Hornady ability to provide their components to other companies to load prc at least provides the peace of mind some folks are looking for. For ex - Federal loading the eldx, rem the cx. I never worried anout this much but can see why folks do. If some other big companies want to load 6.8 they either need to come up with own heavy 6.8 or buy Nosler, Sierra, Berger, etc.. and those have been more spotty across board for availability in loaded ammo. However there is good heavy 270 bullet availabilty in the handloading market which hopefully spawns good brass guys (there is strong indication of ADG this year - fingers crossed)

Anyway, I just bought a Ruger SFAR 308 today and some hornady black ammo. I am hopefully gonna fudd a bunch of pigs this weeknd

Lou

 

[Formidilosus]

I don’t disagree much with what saying except that the 270 win still well outsells the prcs. It may not for some smaller niche makers but not with big guys unless they are selling vast amounts of one load online. Cabelas has stacks of 270 on shelf vs 2-3 varieties of 6.5 prc and none of 7 prc. Online they have 29 types 270 in stock, 7 6.5 prc, and 1 7prc and 1 6.8W. During and after the pandemic 270 was one of first to come back - well before saw anything PRC. Now, new rifle sales - I have no doubt the 6.5 prc is in the lead and all of these rounds are miniscule compared to 6.5 cm. This is not knocking the PRC but they have been popular for couple of years and the 270 held the same spot for 100 years (which is somewhere after the ubers like 223, 308, 30-06, and now 6.5cm) but still in top 3-7)

I too hope the 6.8W keeps going. While I am not as pessimistic at its chances to do ok the next several years will tell. The one thing that came to light for me out of this conversation is that Hornady ability to provide their components to other companies to load prc at least provides the peace of mind some folks are looking for. For ex - Federal loading the eldx, rem the cx. I never worried anout this much but can see why folks do. If some other big companies want to load 6.8 they either need to come up with own heavy 6.8 or buy Nosler, Sierra, Berger, etc.. and those have been more spotty across board for availability in loaded ammo. However there is good heavy 270 bullet availabilty in the handloading market which hopefully spawns good brass guys (there is strong indication of ADG this year - fingers crossed)

Yes sir.

Anyway, I just bought a Ruger SFAR 308 today and some hornady black ammo. I am hopefully gonna fudd a bunch of pigs this weeknd

Lou

Haha.

 

[atmat]

the 270 win still well outsells the prcs

Do you have any numbers on this?

 

[Lou270]

Do you have any numbers on this?

No, I am just using common sense. Go to the big box stores and see what and how much of what is in stock. The 6.5 prc came out what in 2018. There is a tiny number of these new rifles out there compared to established rounds. This new stuff may be the only cartridges see on tv or youtube videos but in deer camps around the world there are probably 50 or 100 270s that show up for every prc. If the 270 hurts, the 30-30 and 243 probably outsells them by good margin too. Years down the road the prcs may take over but they have only been around since what - 2018? I have run across one guy that used the 6.5 prc in several camps on different hunts I have been on in last few years and that was my cousin who is stupid like me who was the only 6.8W. Lots of 6.5 cm…

Lou

 

[fwafwow]

FWIW - based on a search of ammoseek (ignoring shipping costs and taxes and using "any" for brand and bullet weight):

• 6.8 Western - cheapest available is $2 per round and there are just over 100 results/sellers (about a page plus 7 more on the second page of results)
• 270 Win - $0.77 and almost 5 pages of results
• 6.5 PRC - $1.50 and almost 5 pages of results
• 7 PRC - $1.77 and almost 4 pages of results
• 6.5 CM - $0.78 and almost 5 pages of results
• 30-30 - $0.74 and almost 5 pages of results.

 

[Felix40]

Lots. I have 2 6.8 and a 1-8 270 wsm. I also own my own property and hunt and shoot a lot. The 170 berger is a hammer and has a similar bc to the 156 berger I can say it drops game much more dramatically them the 140 berger 6.5, at least out of the creedmoor which I have also used a bit. So did the 7mm /168 out of 7mm wsm. I also dont stick with one bullet type as try many in many different cartridges as I like to test things. I have killed game with 165 matrix, 165 ablr, 170 btip, 170 berger, 175 tgk in last few years and that is multiple of each except the 170 btip which is only 1 so far. I have about 250 170 bergers left on hand since you asked

The reality from your posts Form is you are stuck on eldms as being the best game bullet and will dismiss anything that does not use that bullet. It is a nice bullet but it is not a hunting bullet. All of the hunting heavy 7mm/6.5 bullets are similar bc to heavy .277 cal. There is no magic. And you are right the 6.8 does not do anything the 6.5/7 prc do not. However it does more than 6.5 prc and nearly as much as the 7 prc. Whether there ends up being market there or not is tbd but if you want more performance/heavier bullets than a 6.5 prc but not the recoil of a 7prc/300 mag get the 6.8W.

You folks keep dissing the 270 wsm but it was no different than the prcs. It came out and everybody made ammo for it and chambered it. The Jamison lawsuit and royalty derailed it some but it is still well supported. The RS darling Tikka still chambers for it let alone Win, Browning, Savage, CA (probably others)and I have recently seen Win, Horn, Barnes, and Nosler ammo for it. Both Peterson and ADG making brass for it this year. Not bad for a dead cartridge. How’s that 300/338 rcm support? So, when you think you are a prognosticator at least look outside of your small world. There are a lot of 27 cal fans who like the balance it offers for hunting…

Lou

The things a 6.8 does more than a 6.5 prc are almost all negatives. 25% more recoil, more bullet drop, more wind drift, more expensive ammo. The argument of “it hits harder”, which is largely a debunked metric, can’t outweigh those negatives.

For people who still buy into the energy metric, you can step up to the 7prc and get way better ballistics with like 5% more recoil than a 6.8.

 

[Lou270]

The things a 6.8 does more than a 6.5 prc are almost all negatives. 25% more recoil, more bullet drop, more wind drift, more expensive ammo. The argument of “it hits harder”, which is largely a debunked metric, can’t outweigh those negatives.

For people who still buy into the energy metric, you can step up to the 7prc and get way better ballistics with like 5% more recoil than a 6.8.

The 7mm prc has 15% more recoil than 6.8 and with hunting ammo the 6.8 had minutely more if any drift / drop than 6.5 prc. The 7prc holds 9-10 gr more powder and shoots a bullet 15 -20 gr velocity the same speed as 6.8 W. This is about same between 6.5 and 6.8. If hit harder is a debunked myth to you why are you even talking 6.5 prc. Go to the 223 for eveything thread. This is about marketing and perceptions

If I wanted more than a 6.5 and went long action why would I stop at 7prc and not get a 28N, 300 prc, or 30 Nos which tromps the 7prc. Oh…wait not effeicient, too much recoil. Somehow the 7prc is none of these compared to the smaller more effecient 6.8W? Congrats, you have been marketed

Any case even if it doesn’t make a difference to you or me the public thinks it does or again there would not be umpteen different cartridges. I, as a 270 fan, for years was perplexed how a 160 gr 7mm is an elk round but a 270 150gr is “marginal”. You gotta watch those tricky 7mm guys. They know how to market

Lou

 

[Gila]

The way I see it….if the existence of the 7 PRC hinges on the sales of one particular 180 gr match bullet then it is already dead. I found this American Hunter article interesting….It is after all, the NRA:

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Head to Head: 6.8 Western vs. 7mm PRC

Both the 6.8 Western and 7mm PRC are designed for long range work and are solid all-around choices for hunting. Which comes out on top? We take a closer look at the pros and cons of each.

www.americanhunter.org

 

[bmart2622]

Thats just as ridiculous as you continuing to say it wont work in a Tikka action

 

[Felix40]

The 7mm prc has 15% more recoil than 6.8 and with hunting ammo the 6.8 had minutely more if any drift / drop than 6.5 prc. The 7prc holds 9-10 gr more powder and shoots a bullet 15 -20 gr velocity the same speed as 6.8 W. This is about same between 6.5 and 6.8. If hit harder is a debunked myth to you why are you even talking 6.5 prc. Go to the 223 for eveything thread. This is about marketing and perceptions

If I wanted more than a 6.5 and went long action why would I stop at 7prc and not get a 28N, 300 prc, or 30 Nos which tromps the 7prc. Oh…wait not effeicient, too much recoil. Somehow the 7prc is none of these compared to the smaller more effecient 6.8W? Congrats, you have been marketed

Any case even if it doesn’t make a difference to you or me the public thinks it does or again there would not be umpteen different cartridges. I, as a 270 fan, for years was perplexed how a 160 gr 7mm is an elk round but a 270 150gr is “marginal”. You gotta watch those tricky 7mm guys. They know how to market

Lou

You’re right. The math works out to somewhere between 10 and 15% more recoil for the 7. Depending on the source you look at. I would argue you get that much or more performance out of the cartridge. Less drift and flatter trajectory and your favorite (more energy). So you actually get something for the extra recoil.


The difference in recoil 6.8 vs 6.5 is greater, but the 6.8 provides less or MAYBE equal performance.


Then add in the lack of ammo and rifles, and Winchester’s history of not supporting calibers and the 6.8 starts to look less appealing. It’s not a bad caliber and I was actually considering buying one when they came out. I just think there are better options that will eventually cause it to be phased out.

 

[Formidilosus]

The 7mm prc has 15% more recoil than 6.8 and with hunting ammo the 6.8 had minutely more if any drift / drop than 6.5 prc.

No it doesn’t- it’s about 10% difference in recoil (170gr versus 180gr), 25 versus 27ft-lbs for an 8.5lb rifle.

The 7prc holds 9-10 gr more powder and shoots a bullet 15 -20 gr velocity the same speed as 6.8 W.

You have no idea what a 7PRC is, do you? Top end loads for the 6.8 Western are 65-67gr for 170’s. Top end loads for the 7PRC is 67-69gr for 180’s.

This is about same between 6.5 and 6.8. If hit harder is a debunked myth to you why are you even talking 6.5 prc. Go to the 223 for eveything thread. This is about marketing and perceptions.

It isn’t about reality, because you have no idea what a 7PRC is apparently.

If I wanted more than a 6.5 and went long action why would I stop at 7prc and not get a 28N, 300 prc, or 30 Nos which tromps the 7prc.

Neither the 300 PRC nor 30 Nosler stomps the 7 PRC. The opposite actually. The 28 Nosler can, but the overall length causes problems with high BC bullets in lots of actions. What exactly are you arguing?

Oh…wait not effeicient, too much recoil. Somehow the 7prc is none of these compared to the smaller more effecient 6.8W? Congrats, you have been marketed

Again, you have no actual knowledge of what the differences are between the 6.8 western 7PRC do you?

 

[atmat]

No, I am just using common sense. Go to the big box stores and see what and how much of what is in stock.

I get what you're saying, but that’s entirely anecdotal. I think it would be interesting to see actual numbers for how many rounds of .270 are sold every year vs 6.5 prc.

If I had to wager, I would think 270 sells more — but I’m curious regarding the numbers.

 

[Lou270]

I get what you're saying, but that’s entirely anecdotal. I think it would be interesting to see actual numbers for how many rounds of .270 are sold every year vs 6.5 prc.

If I had to wager, I would think 270 sells more — but I’m curious regarding the numbers.

Yes. It is anecdotal. The ammo guys used to publish their lists but not seen one in long time. I am just going by what is on shelves locally though I am a big gun friendly area (DFW). May vary regionally

Lou

 

[atmat]

Yes. It is anecdotal. The ammo guys used to publish their lists but not seen one in long time. I am just going by what is on shelves locally though I am a big gun friendly area (DFW). May vary regionally

Lou

Oh, another DFW guy. Right on, there’s a good number of us.

 

[Lou270]

Oh, another DFW guy. Right on, there’s a good number of us.

Nice! I was just in Allen Cabelad buying some 308 goodies. I talked to guy at gun counter and asked him what is selling. Said by far dominant is 223 and 308, with 6.5 cm a lot as well. After that big drop off, but said 243 and 270 still strong. I asked about 6.8W and he said not much. I asked about PRCs and he said few 6.5 prc but nothing else. Said it may be different in other areas

 

[Lou270]

No it doesn’t- it’s about 10% difference in recoil (170gr versus 180gr), 25 versus 27ft-lbs for an 8.5lb rifle.






You have no idea what a 7PRC is, do you? Top end loads for the 6.8 Western are 65-67gr for 170’s. Top end loads for the 7PRC is 67-69gr for 180’s.






It isn’t about reality, because you have no idea what a 7PRC is apparently.






Neither the 300 PRC nor 30 Nosler stomps the 7 PRC. The opposite actually. The 28 Nosler can, but the overall length causes problems with high BC bullets in lots of actions. What exactly are you arguing?






Again, you have no actual knowledge of what the differences are between the 6.8 western 7PRC do you?

I am very familiar with 7prc as had a 7mm wsm which is very simlar for about 10 years. In fact it was rebarreled to 6.8W. RL26 makes the 7mm wsm sing by the way. I was shooting 168 bergers and the 6.8 came out and could get similar down range performance with 170 bergers because they have higher bc and bit less recoil since it was a 170 @2900 vs a 168@3050. I personally did not have an interest in a 180gr bullet at 2950-3000 fps as prior to 7mm wsm had a 300 wsm and not fun for me in light rifle running 180s at that velocity. I did not run 180s in the 7mm as the twist was 1-9.5.

As for recoil it is what it is. From hodgdon data, with magpro the 6.8W does 2840 with 175s at 62.4 and 7prc does 2980 with 180s with 68.6 gr. According to jbm this is 24.8 vs 29.2 ft-lbs in 8lbs rifle or about 15%. For the record I get 2830 fps out of my 6.8W with 58gr rl26. Sierra sent me load data and max was up over 2900 fps with just over 60 gr but I stayed at 2830 as I hunt in hot weather a good bit plus it matched cds dial I had set up for browning factory load. Hornady lists 67gr as getting 2950 with 180s. I did not rerun calc but bet it will be in same ballpark

As for effiency, it is what it is as well. As you go down in case capacity you get more fps per grain of powder. The smaller 7prc is more efficient than the 28N, the smaller 6.8 is more efficient than 7prc, the smaller 6.5 prc is more efficient than 6.8W. You don’t skip the 6.8W just because it is not a 6.5 or 7mm.

Lou

 

[Buzby]

“6.8w isn’t on the shelves because it’s so popular.”

“The shelves are full of .270 because it’s so popular.”

Sure.

 

[todd m]

ADG will be making brass for it this year. not dead, not going anywhere, at least 5 MFGR's are now making rifle in 6.8 (Browning, Winchester, Christensen, Fierce, Seekins) and here's a link for the brass: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...athXmVdvS5FujPv0gJ7psUB4zFgEpCvU#post-1187017

 

[goathunter]

I just wish manufacturers would update the barrels and chambers on existing cartridges rather than creating new cartridges. I love new cartridges too, but I hate seeing old ones put out the pasture so to speak. Keep coming out with new cartridges but update the old ones too. So we can keep getting components for them. And it would be sweet to buy an OEM fast twist 270 7Saum 270wsm.

 

[Gila]

I just wish manufacturers would update the barrels and chambers on existing cartridges rather than creating new cartridges. I love new cartridges too, but I hate seeing old ones put out the pasture so to speak. Keep coming out with new cartridges but update the old ones too. So we can keep getting components for them. And it would be sweet to buy an OEM fast twist 270 7Saum 270wsm.

Rifle makers are doing just that where it makes sense. They are gradually making 270 Win barrels with a faster twist. The WSMs basically flopped, the 300 WSM seems to me, is the only one that really got any traction. The 270 WSM is being replaced by the 6.8 Western. I think putting a fast twist on the 243 and the 300 WSM, 280AI is a big deal. I don’t think the 7 SAUM and the 284 Win get enough attention as those two cartridges shoot the 180 low drags very well. But Winchester stopped supporting the 284 about 40 years ago. Remington is in survival mode. However, we have the best brass available for those two cartridges.

Seems as though the only bullet hunters want to shoot in the 7 PRC is the 180 ELD-M. I say hunters because the target shooting sports don’t seem to want the 7 PRC. I find it rather ironic that you can find factory ammo with that bullet, but as I write this, that particular bullet is very difficult to find for hand loads. If you look at the Load Data database there are only 26 (most are for the 180 eld-m) published loads for the 7 PRC yet there are over 332 published loads for the 6.8 Western. I don’t buy factory ammo. I hand load for my rifles and I am not the only one. I would like to point out that since the Korean War the military has adopted the 7.62 NATO, the 5.56 NATO and now the 6.8 NATO.