Is it all Leopolds

[Ross]

Will be the odd man out. Only scoped rifled since the 80s I’ve hunted with have been Leupolds. I go to the range every year check zero, no issue so boring Also, the two decade tikka simply has stacked them up. Sometimes simple is good.

 

[kman]

How would you feel if you bought a newly assembled lemon Leupold scope that wasn't constructed with the same durability as your 30 year old Leupold?

Not happy. Sorry it’s a lemon. Maybe I got lucky.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Leupold Engineer's Comment on Tracking.

I listened to a podcast the other day that referenced a Leupold engineer saying that when their scopes fail to track properly, it is because when the internals are put together and lubricated, the grease does not always get spread throughout the erectors full range of motion. He said that when...

rokslide.com

In case people want to subject themselves to even more of this discussion. But yea. The engineers are aware of the discussion and the issues. It’s frustrating that they don’t do some R&D, but likely because those types of decisions are made through entire teams of analysis on ROI and market. One of my best friends works for SIG as an engineer. I ask him about stuff like this all the time that seems obvious from the consumer end of things. He just shrugs and says “the market analysis teams make those decisions” Until enough of the consumer base demands change, it won’t happen. I’d be willing to bet that Hunting scopes are a tiny tiny fraction of Leupolds total sales and business

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I would bet just the opposite on Leupold scopes. That’s what have been known the longest for a spud I’d bet the VX line of scopes significantly outsells the MK line.

Rokslide is not the majority of hunters by a LONG shot.


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[onlybrowning]

Genuine thought, not trolling. I hand load and use pretty much only Hodgdon Extreme powders in an attempt to not have large changes in velocity over different temperatures.

I’m also admittedly very new to this game (analyzing zero repeatability on rifles). In my world, those who are able, buy a good scope (Leupold) and check zero before deer season. Eastern whitetail hunting.

Let’s say you check zero on September 20th or thereabouts every year, and you adjust accordingly. How many people have a good enough rest, with consistent temperatures, with a chronograph, to verify that a minute or so so of adjustment is indeed a scope failure and not another variable?

I’m absolutely putting value in the drop tests and data and have used it in my purchases. Just curios if the other variables are at play like I suspect they may be. For example, if a person reloads with say W-748 in their .308 and zeros at 82 degrees, is it reasonable to think their zero at 25 degrees may shift a bit at 100yds, not factoring less that great technique, and sub par mounting, etc.?

I used to shoot 4 position NRA small bore. It was always indoor, and quite controlled as far as temps go. In that environment, it was uncommon to re-zero a scope unless you shot a different lot number of ammo. Otherwise, your sighter target was really a warmup and an easy insurance policy.

Is this a factor in people “blaming scopes” for other issues?


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[Billy Goat]

I had a Leupold wander and drive a Chevy

Fake news

 

[Jake Larsen]

I would bet just the opposite on Leupold scopes. That’s what have been known the longest for a spud I’d bet the VX line of scopes significantly outsells the MK line.

Rokslide is not the majority of hunters by a LONG shot.


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It’d be interesting to see some numbers. Keep in mind they’ve got multiple military contracts.


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[ColPenguin]

Not happy. Sorry it’s a lemon. Maybe I got lucky.

Nothing for you to be sorry for.

Most everyone buying a new Leupold scope have the expectation that it's going to be just as reliable as your older Leupold scope.

 

[Billy Goat]

Genuine thought, not trolling.

Let’s say you check zero on September 20th or thereabouts every year, and you adjust accordingly. How many people have a good enough rest, with consistent temperatures, with a chronograph, to verify that a minute or so so of adjustment is indeed a scope failure and not another variable?




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I had a r700 .260 with constant wandering zero. Through a few different scopes, then changed mounts and had a continued wandering zero


That gun would produce .5 moa with handloads, hated anything past 120 gr, but with 100gr amax, it was money. While doing ladder test or whatever the flavor of the month was.

Zero would change, by like 6" between periods of carrying it in the truck


Pull Leupold, Burris, Weaver, put Trijicon on, checked receipt, that was 2012. Zero hasn't changed.


Repeat on a few other rifles, almost magic.



Can't say environments didn't change, but they were consistent enough that I didn't notice a change.

It's been surprising taking a gun that seems to shoot like chit, (1.5 moa) and taking it to 450 yards on groundhogs (wood chucks or Phil, whatever you want to call them) and it still hits way past anything I tried to dial with other scopes

It's a tikka with sportsmatch rings, swfa 10x, and 77tmk.

I'm sure there's better combo's, but this is a stupid easy button in my experience. Made me think why is stuff so hard?

I still think the accuracy sucks with my RSS, but it keeps hitting what I'm shooting at.

 

[2531usmc]

Kinda funny how Leupolds are non-functional for so many people on the Rokslide forums. But looking at the Alaska Outdoors Supersite, the Leupold 1x5, 3x9 and 2.5x8 seem to be the riflescopes of choice for Alaska hunting with 375s, 338s, and the 300 mags.

 

[onlybrowning]

I had a r700 .260 with constant wandering zero. Through a few different scopes, then changed mounts and had a continued wandering zero


That gun would produce .5 moa with handloads, hated anything past 120 gr, but with 100gr amax, it was money. While doing ladder test or whatever the flavor of the month was.

Zero would change, by like 6" between periods of carrying it in the truck


Pull Leupold, Burris, Weaver, put Trijicon on, checked receipt, that was 2012. Zero hasn't changed.


Repeat on a few other rifles, almost magic.



Can't say environments didn't change, but they were consistent enough that I didn't notice a change.

It's been surprising taking a gun that seems to shoot like chit, (1.5 moa) and taking it to 450 yards on groundhogs (wood chucks or Phil, whatever you want to call them) and it still hits way past anything I tried to dial with other scopes

It's a tikka with sportsmatch rings, swfa 10x, and 77tmk.

I'm sure there's better combo's, but this is a stupid easy button in my experience. Made me think why is stuff so hard?

I still think the accuracy sucks with my RSS, but it keeps hitting what I'm shooting at.

Absolutely a fair point. For what it’s worth, I used to be an all Leupold guy and the same “checking zero” experiences as many have documented here.

I distinctly remember after mounting my first NF NX8, during initial sight in, thinking, wow, 4 clicks is actually 1” at 100yds. Amazing.

Had the same experience mounting Mavens, Trijicon, SWFA since.


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[PredatorSlayer]

Why do you keep saying “cult”? It doesn’t mean what you think it means, and you’re using it as the word “racist” is used now.



cult /kŭlt/

noun​

1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
2. The followers of such a religion or sect.
3. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.

Says the leader of the cult….j/k Form. He should have said “cult like” following or something. Every forum has cult-like behavior. LRH is hammer bullets and sherman cartridges, rokslide is tikka and swfa

 

[JohnJohnson]

Kinda funny how Leupolds are non-functional for so many people on the Rokslide forums. But looking at the Alaska Outdoors Supersite, the Leupold 1x5, 3x9 and 2.5x8 seem to be the riflescopes of choice for Alaska hunting with 375s, 338s, and the 300 mags.

I think that's kind of unrelated to the topic honestly. You seem to be hinting at their ability to withstand big recoil which is a force that pushes the scope front/back. Whereas the zero-shifts people are talking about are primarily from side-to-side forces.

Plus this topic was posted in the long range section of the forum. While people certainly COULD be shooting long range with 1x5, 3x9, and 2.5-8 scopes I'd hazard a guess that they aren't. So whether they'd even notice a zero shift is doubtful.

 

[Choupique]

remember after mounting my first NF NX8, during initial sight in, thinking, wow, 4 clicks is actually 1” at 100yds. Amazing.

I had the same reaction with my first SWFA.

I've helped sight in countless rifles and some of them you had to shake a dead cat over them while chanting bernoullis equation to get them to adjust to what you needed. One click might be a half inch or it might be 3 inches or it might be none. Who knows? Depends on color of cat used.

Leupold used to advertise their scopes on this big recoil simulator thingy. My experience with VX3 scopes (several dozen of them) is that they'll hold zero and adjust well enough for my needs (300 yards, no dialing) as long as they aren't dropped or beat on.

Ill continue to use leupolds on some of my rifles where small shifts really don't matter and they are / always were handled gingerly. When it comes to cross country trips with huge time and money investment, the swfa is the only one coming.

 

[Okie_Poke]

Pull Leupold, Burris, Weaver, put Trijicon on, checked receipt, that was 2012. Zero hasn't changed.


Repeat on a few other rifles, almost magic.

I have a question: Are you still shooting a single lot of ammo/components, or do you have the same zero across multiple lots or even different ammo types?

 

[Billy Goat]

I have a question: Are you still shooting a single lot of ammo/components, or do you have the same zero across multiple lots or even different ammo types?

With .260 I had 1k primers, 6# of powder with same lot number, 1k amax 100's. Once I had it zeroed, it just rode in truck or tractor mostly. Didn't shoot it high volume, it was just what got taken all over the farms. Never had to adjust it.

I just pulled that scope 2 weeks ago, put gun in the back of the safe. Using 108 eldm to basically do the same thing now.


I bedded the action, bonded the NF unimount accidentally while bedding it....

Maybe by accident, I didn't plan on pulling it. JB weld bed job that I didn't use release agent on. I can heat it and pull it if I want.

 

[Deadspace]

Just shot my rifle after it has been in a lock box in the back of my truck for the last 4ish months. This Leupold mark 5 3-18 seems to be doing well.

Edit to add: I should mention that I never dial and always use my reticle with this specific scope.

 

[Macintosh]

@Okie_Poke @onlybrowning both good points--of course your zero may shift if you change components or something else changes. Your specific questions and points have been addressed dozens of times before in other threads, because "this thread" comes up about monthly, and has for many years.

If I say my zero hasn't shifted, I mean it hasnt shifted when no changes were made. Atmospherics does not measurably change a 100-yard zero. I expect that my zero at home at 1000' above sea level in the east, is the same as it is after a flight to colorado when I verify zero at 7 or 8 or 9,000'--the actual shift at 100 yards is less than 1 click on a scope, so this is a not something that realistically qualifies as a change. I generally zero from prone, which I can duplicate anywhere I shoot. I know what size cone my gun shoots into so zero-checks just need to fall inside that size circle from POA. I use minimum 10-rounds to determine center of group for zeroing, I buy ammo usually several flats at a time from the same lot, I use a LRF to verify actual range, etc. I hunt with different ammo than I practice with, so when I re-zero with hunting ammo in september I dont count that--that's an intentional change that I expect will cause a small shift in POI. But I DO check zero again in January after hunting season to verify it hasnt shifted, then re-zero with practice ammo and I verify zero every range trip thereafter. I record everything in a notebook that lives in my shooting bag, so I have a running tally of zero-checks, about a dozen and a half per rifle per year, so it's pretty easy to go back and check or track a minor issue.

If my zero is off or groups open up, I am checking witness marks on action and scope mounts to see if anything loosened, checking barrel float, etc and double-checking zero to verify it isnt me. After that I can swap in a spare scope that has been good in the past. I think a lot of times it's the action moving in the stock or the scope slipping in the rings, a self drop test can help to identify some of this sort of thing before it happens in the field--it's really proofing your entire gun setup, not just the scope itself.

This has all been covered in the scope eval threads as far as the scope eval methodology and what it is testing, how to verify that its the scope and not the rifle, etc. Also some info on on how to set up a rifle to prevent issues inthe first place, and then if you do have a problem how to isolate where the problem is and then correct it without chasing your tail. This podcast episode encapsulates much of that info in a fairly condensed place.

For sure I had a learning curve when I had issues with wandering zero. The problems I was having, and the tools to troubleshoot, diagnose and fix, are actually how I found rokslide in the first place. It took some convincing, but when I started using different scopes, with more intention put into mounting and setup, the problems stopped happening. There are always people raising straw man arguments that have been addressed before, gaslighting those that have experienced issues and those that havent, extrapolating their own experiences onto those with different experiences (in both directions)...all I can do is relate my personal experience. But I will say when swapping out scopes back and forth literally opens and closes groups, it is clear as night and day when the scope itself is the only variable causing those problems to happen. At that point it's fair to say "it's the scope, dummy". Before that point, yes, there's a host of other issues that need to get addressed first to isolate the scope as the problem--it's just that it's pretty easy to address those ahead of time so they are largely eliminated, and relatively easy to identify if they do happen.

 

[Okie_Poke]

With .260 I had 1k primers, 6# of powder with same lot number, 1k amax 100's. Once I had it zeroed, it just rode in truck or tractor mostly. Didn't shoot it high volume, it was just what got taken all over the farms. Never had to adjust it.

Thanks. I need to do a better job of this. I tinker too much with my load and components. For some things that's fine, but I need to set one rifle aside and just say "this is my killing rifle, and this is my killing load" and shoot it forever.

@Okie_Poke @onlybrowning both good points--of course your zero may shift if you change components or something else changes. Your specific questions and points have been addressed dozens of times before in other threads, because "this thread" comes up about monthly, and has for many years.

* * *

This has all been covered in the scope eval threads as far as the scope eval methodology and what it is testing, how to verify that its the scope and not the rifle, etc. Also some info on on how to set up a rifle to prevent issues inthe first place, and then if you do have a problem how to isolate where the problem is and then correct it without chasing your tail. This podcast episode encapsulates much of that info in a fairly condensed place.

Thanks. I've read through that post several times and listened to the podcast. I kinda assumed Form was using the same lot of ammo for the tests when he specifies what ammo he's using each time, and I've heard/read him refer to shooting "pallets" of ammo each year. I'm just curious how many mere mortals stick with the same lot of ammo/components for that many rounds. It's apparently more than I anticipated.

I think there are a lot of reasons hunters/shooters have come to expect to have to re-zero their rifle often and so don't think about it all that much when they do. One of those, at least for me, is that I don't shoot enough of "the same thing" consistently enough to notice a change in zero and attribute it to the scope. If next year, I'm using a different box of ammo or loading with a different lot of bullet or powder, and I have to rezero when I go to the range, I don't think anything of it. I'm definitley curious enough that I want to pay more attention to this on purpose. Not because I doubt your experience or Form's drop tests, but because I'm like that. I often have to learn things for myself, and that has both good and bad consequences. Still, if I was planning a once-in-a-lifetime hunt, I'd probably consider putting a Nightforce on my rifle just so I wasn't woried about it.

 

[eLightfoot]

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[Spoonbill]

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Makes you wonder what the zero was before he left. I think that the mark 5 had a trackable shift in zero like .1-.3 mils? Kind of hard to keep track of which leupold scopes do what in regards to zero.