Interesting finding - Arrow Builds

[wildernessmaster]

Just wanted to pass this along...

I am building some arrows with Easton Axis 5mm (.001s). When I first cut them I cut them by hand with one of those harbor freight small chop saws. I noticed some noticeable variance in length (probably max 1/4"). I am trying to be meticulous, so I weighed out all of my arrrows, inserts, and vanes and put the weights into Excel.

I then ordered the arrows lightest to heaviest, and then took each component (insert, each vane) and ordered them heaviest to lightest. The goal being to get a bunch of "complete" arrows as close to same weight.

When I did I got:
Avg: 467.11
Diff: .9
S Avg: 466.92 (bottom 6 lightest arrow average)
L Avg: 467.30 (top 6 heaviest arrow average)
Deviation: .25
Variance: .06

After looking at my arrows for a few weeks (just cut nothing actually built yet) over Cmas, I decided to spring for a Weston saw to cut my arrows closer to the same. It came in a week or so ago. Tonight I just recut them, slightly below the smallest arrow. When I put them on a flat surface the lengths are dead same.

But here is the interesting thing... Here is what I got when I did the same with them:
Avg: 466.04
Diff: 1.4
S Avg: 465.75
L Avg: 466.33
Deviation: .40
Variance: .16

That kind of blew my mind... Basically:
1. My not perfect hand cuts produced a tighter set overall set of arrows (by weight).
2. Arrows cut to near perfect same sized lengths produced more variance.

I found this interesting.

 

[Diesel]

So the variances are in the walls of the tubes? Or inserts?

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Counterintuitive results, but I don't know if you can draw any meaningful conclusions from it. If you were to redo your component sorting/matching after trimming your arrows with the Weston saw, you could probably get your total arrow weight variance back down close to the original batch (not that these tiny variances matter one way or the other).

 

[Brendan]

What you'll find interesting as well is that the difference in weight doesn't make a damn bit of difference. Not even close. One of those areas that's not worth spending your time again.

Most critical variable is spine consistency, then spend my time on spine alignment and getting the straightest overall arrow with my cut-down process.

 

[wildernessmaster]

Counterintuitive results, but I don't know if you can draw any meaningful conclusions from it. If you were to redo your component sorting/matching after trimming your arrows with the Weston saw, you could probably get your total arrow weight variance back down close to the original batch (not that these tiny variances matter one way or the other).

I did... I kept the original (hand cut) spreadsheet and repeated the same process in a new spreadsheet with the new cut...

I think there are several things you can draw as conclusions:
1. Arrow weights vary even when cut close to perfect... Which means in spite of .001 straightness, the overall manufacturing of an arrow still has a lot of variances.
2. Hand cutting arrows may not be as bad as clean cuts (as I saw). I can see this one going either way. But either way its not going to be much worse than the clean cuts (as long as you are close).
3. Overall we are talking 1.4 gr... So is that enough to cause serious dispersion on the shooting front? If so, I think we are screwed because what I have seen with broadheads is their weights can be rather variant (way more than 1, or 2 gr.

 

[wildernessmaster]

What you'll find interesting as well is that the difference in weight doesn't make a damn bit of difference. Not even close. One of those areas that's not worth spending your time again.

Most critical variable is spine consistency, then spend my time on spine alignment and getting the straightest overall arrow with my cut-down process.

Ha ha... I just wrote that myself in my last reply (about weights not mattering).

But...

I do have to wonder if the weight varies that means that the total material differs in the arrows and that should mean the spine varies too (since there is some correlation between spine and material). Again, at 1.4 gr, I am not thinking that is enough to cause significant concerns.

I really did the weight part just out of curiosity (initially)...

I did the recut mainly because I was more concerned that minute differences in lengths changes the "lever arm" of the arrow which results in a non-linear change in arrow dynamics (ha pun intended... "aero dynamics")...

 

[wildernessmaster]

So the variances are in the walls of the tubes? Or inserts?

The variance that most contributed to this was the arrow weights - not the components. They remarkably were very close in weights. Like always .1 - .2 gr differences across most all of the lot.

 

[sndmn11]

It would have been most interesting if you had shot them at mismatched lengths, documented patterns, and then done the same after trimming to equal lengths.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I did... I kept the original (hand cut) spreadsheet and repeated the same process in a new spreadsheet with the new cut...

Gotcha. I thought you had actually built out the first batch of arrows and figured you wouldn't have gone to the trouble of pulling inserts and cutting fletching after trimming the shafts just to redo the weight sorting/matching exercise.

1. Arrow weights vary even when cut close to perfect... Which means in spite of .001 straightness, the overall manufacturing of an arrow still has a lot of variances.

True. Some manufacturers publish the weight tolerance of their shafts. ±1-2 gr isn't uncommon.

3. Overall we are talking 1.4 gr... So is that enough to cause serious dispersion on the shooting front?

No.

 

[Beendare]

Branden nailed it.

My Axis 5mm arrows are all within 2 gr......consistent epoxy matters.

I know Pro shooters that say you cant detect a 10 gr variation....all else equal.

 

[Todd N]

Minute differences like that don't have an impact above typical shooting accuracy.

 

[dkime]

Branden nailed it.

My Axis 5mm arrows are all within 2 gr......consistent epoxy matters.

I know Pro shooters that say you cant detect a 10 gr variation....all else equal.

Truer words have never been spoken, I fell out of my chair laughing when I heard a guy say 1gr equates to 1” at 100yds.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MADD BEAR]

If you plan on shooting broadheads with axis arrows here is something to keep in mind.

If you built the arrows and installed the HIT inserts with the green tool provided you may strip out your broadhead threads. Ill explain why.

The depth that the green insert tool sets the insert to is not a universal fit for every point/broadhead. This means although the point may stop spinning, it really is just pressing in and then twisting on the end of the carbon, and the threads are not fully seated and tight to the insert. You can feel a lot of wobble until your point touches the carbon.

The work around I have found for this is quite complicated and requires aftermarket components.

Square end of shaft
Ironwill impact collar
Tuffhead direct bond adapter
Tuffhead glue on single bevel

Switched to a hot melt glue on system and it feels tough as nails and I have confidence. Its a shame easton doesnt provide the necessary components to really make these arrows 100% lethal. You gotta go aftermarket to achieve performance in almost anything we do now a days it seems like.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MADD BEAR]

If you plan on shooting broadheads with axis arrows here is something to keep in mind.

If you built the arrows and installed the HIT inserts with the green tool provided you may strip out your broadhead threads. Ill explain why.

The depth that the green insert tool sets the insert to is not a universal fit for every point/broadhead. This means although the point may stop spinning, it really is just pressing in and then twisting on the end of the carbon, and the threads are not fully seated and tight to the insert. You can feel a lot of wobble until your point touches the carbon.

The work around I have found for this is quite complicated and requires aftermarket components.

Square end of shaft
Ironwill impact collar
Tuffhead direct bond adapter
Tuffhead glue on single bevel

Switched to a hot melt glue on system and it feels tough as nails and I have confidence. Its a shame easton doesnt provide the necessary components to really make these arrows 100% lethal. You gotta go aftermarket to achieve performance in almost anything we do now a days it seems like.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

With the point not fully seated in the insert, the end of the carbon and the loose threads will absorb most of the impact. I tested it with this old zwickey and found it to be true. The force of impact was transferred to the threads and they blew out. This was shooting into a frozen foam target just to see what happens. Again something to keep in mind. I have been playing, testing and hunting with axis since a year ago, just some of my crazy findings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dkime]

With the point not fully seated in the insert, the end of the carbon and the loose threads will absorb most of the impact. I tested it with this old zwickey and found it to be true. The force of impact was transferred to the threads and they blew out. This was shooting into a frozen foam target just to see what happens. Again something to keep in mind. I have been playing, testing and hunting with axis since a year ago, just some of my crazy findings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Smart man! I’m so surprised we don’t hear more and more about this with so many companies shortening the the ferrule shank and threads to move weight around. I’ve got a 4 blade solid machined head here that only goes in 1.5 revolutions on standard inserts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wildernessmaster]

Truer words have never been spoken, I fell out of my chair laughing when I heard a guy say 1gr equates to 1” at 100yds.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You mean 1 gr doesn't equate to 1" at 100 yards? I thought arrows were MOA'able???

 

[wildernessmaster]

If you plan on shooting broadheads with axis arrows here is something to keep in mind.

If you built the arrows and installed the HIT inserts with the green tool provided you may strip out your broadhead threads. Ill explain why.

The depth that the green insert tool sets the insert to is not a universal fit for every point/broadhead. This means although the point may stop spinning, it really is just pressing in and then twisting on the end of the carbon, and the threads are not fully seated and tight to the insert. You can feel a lot of wobble until your point touches the carbon.

The work around I have found for this is quite complicated and requires aftermarket components.

Square end of shaft
Ironwill impact collar
Tuffhead direct bond adapter
Tuffhead glue on single bevel

Switched to a hot melt glue on system and it feels tough as nails and I have confidence. Its a shame easton doesnt provide the necessary components to really make these arrows 100% lethal. You gotta go aftermarket to achieve performance in almost anything we do now a days it seems like.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks... Good insight and advice. I really appreciate it.

I am using Ethics inserts. I shouldn't have this problem then, correct?

Btw, I am curious about the hot melt glue vs. super glue vs. epoxy. I was going to epoxy mine in, but saw a video by AJA where he used hot melt. Aside from the fact he could later heat his points and break the arrow back down to the shaft - it just looked a lot cleaner. He showed how he warmed the excess glue to remove and create a clean shaft. I liked the idea, but with all the head and insert weight wasn't sure if hot melt was enough?? Is there a specific hot melt glue you use?

 

[Highvoltage1]

Glad I found this, been shooting axis forever. I finally decided to rebuild what I have so I’ll be cutting, adding 75gr brass inserts and reflecting them as well. I don’t have a practice point or broadhead yet so I can’t determine my insert depth yet. I’m thinking 125 exodus

 

[wildernessmaster]

Glad I found this, been shooting axis forever. I finally decided to rebuild what I have so I’ll be cutting, adding 75gr brass inserts and reflecting them as well. I don’t have a practice point or broadhead yet so I can’t determine my insert depth yet. I’m thinking 125 exodus

I am moving to a single bevel, but man let me tell you I may also keep my exodus'es... Those puppies shot through 3 deer this year and kept going like bats out of hell!! All 3 deer were dead within 40 yards. In one case the deer jumped the string really hard and the arrow went in in front of the left rear ham and came out in front of the right front shoulder. So the arrow flew nearly longitudinally through the deer and kept going. I never found it.

 

[Highvoltage1]

I’m getting setup for elk and have read good reviews on them at longer ranges 50-60 yds. I’m also looking at wasp drone both in the 125. Thanks for the info and best wishes.