How Much Torque?

[SDHNTR]

Just watched a YouTube video where the guy used playdoh; wax or doh, it’s a good point. Thanks!

You got the concept right, but absolutely do not use Play-Doh. That stuff has salt in it. It will encourage rust in your screw holes. Use modeling clay if you don’t want to use Johnsons wax or shoe polish wax.

 

[packer58]

I appreciate everyone’s insight. I’m not planning to abuse the rifle, but I am going to use the piss out of it, assuming it shoots well. It’ll ride in the truck a lot, probably get bumped around a fair bit, and might even get dropped. I don’t want to have to baby it, and I definitely don’t want anything to move.

I didn’t notice anyone suggest I should replace the rifle, but the point was made that an integral rail is a better solution…this seems to be born out by the back and forth of how fragile the rail screws (likely) are. So I’m going to basically do as @Antares outlined:

1. Degrease everything with brake cleaner.
2. Sand the top of the action and bottom of the rail; clean again.
3. JB Weld the rail to the action; blue Loctite those screws in, turn until snug then add 1/4 turn. No idea how much torque that’ll be, at this point I don’t think I care.
4. Attach rings to base; going to with blue Loctite here too, snug then add 1/4 turn.
5. Same as above for ring caps.

Only question I’ve got now, obviously I don’t want any release agent on the rail or action, but I’ll have to put those screws in while the epoxy cures. So I need release agent on the screws, right? I’m thinking this needs to be easy to clean off the screws and out of holes after epoxy cures, so I’m leaning toward cooking spray.

One thing I would add to your process, once you prep the top of the receiver and bottom of rail and BEFORE applying any epoxy I would put one rail screw in the front and just snug it up, then tap on the rear of the rail. You may find that the rail machining does not match the top of your receiver, if you can't detect a gap then remove that screw and install it in the rear hole of the rail and repeat. You will most likely find a gap at one end or the other, that procedure will help you bed the rail and not induce any torque / bending / twisting of the rail. Hope all this makes sense, one of your goals is to provide a stress free attachment point for your rings and ultimately your scope.

 

[Huntin Fool]

This may be a dumb question, but If you’re going to JB weld the rail to the action anyways, why not just use red loctite on the screws

 

[Drenalin]

This may be a dumb question, but If you’re going to JB weld the rail to the action anyways, why not just use red loctite on the screws

I thought the same thing; ultimately the JB can be popped off later with some heat and a good whack. Not sure how difficult it would be to get the screws out with red Loctite after some time has passed.

 

[Huntin Fool]

A little heat to the head of the screw should do the trick I believe

 

[tony]

OK, release agent, fill me on this one lol

 

[packer58]

OK, release agent, fill me on this one lol

A release agent is nothing more that a barrier between the epoxy and the metal to prevent the epoxy from sticking / bonding to an unwanted surface. I prefer Kiwi natural shoe wax, two coats buffed down works well.

 

[tony]

Learning with every post!
I thought I was doing good when I bought a set of warne vertical rings, (which I read are not good now), a wheelers torque wrench and some red lock tite.

 

[Antares]

Learning with every post!
I thought I was doing good when I bought a set of warne vertical rings, (which I read are not good now), a wheelers torque wrench and some red lock tite.

You’re already winning just by thinking about it. Most people don’t. Most people think chasing zero is normal, if they even bother to check it.

That was me for a long time.

 

[Castle Rock]

I epoxy the screws in too, no reason to use release because if you want to remove the base the heat required will free the screw too

 

[redneckbmxer24]

While I agree with certain things you’ve stated here and other places. I didnt catch him mentioning a screw size, in fact what I took from it is the sizes mentioned are not utilized based on experiences of failure. If you note how certain things are worded there is only experience by hand being shared. While you me or the next guy can disagree with an opinion or method, it doesn’t make it wrong if his results show otherwise. You and I both look for an exact spec as opposed to an opinion of feel by experience. Randy Selby demonstrates some of the same methodology as what Formidilosus is explaining. (As long as he doesn’t start to discuss the 7mm wapiti express) While I look for a number and exact process, he and others developed a mythology to apply where seen fit.

That’s the issue, he doesn’t even know the screw size or what they can handle and told the OP 20–30in lbs isn’t enough and needs to be tighter.

The screw size and what they can handle is important, someone experienced with mountain optics should know that.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I thought the same thing; ultimately the JB can be popped off later with some heat and a good whack. Not sure how difficult it would be to get the screws out with red Loctite after some time has passed.

Red loctite releases with heat as well. If you’re going to have the heat the rail to release you might at well do it on the screws too.

I wouldnt use the high temp red for this application though, it’s unnecessary and will require more heat to release.

The new orange gel is great too, 3x the strength of blue with basically the same heat ratings. It’s all I use on mounts now.

 

[Macintosh]

Note to mods—lighting rod topics to watch closely:
Fair chase
Politics
Nonresident tag allocation
Commodification of hunting
Ring/base torque rec’s

Question, is there any manufacturer whose recommendations include Loctite? I’ve never had a non-loctited set of rings and bases NOT loosen within a relatively short amount of time, but I can’t think of any set of manufacturer rec’s I’ve ever seen that doesn’t say specifically DRY, And of all the recommendations I’ve seen I don’t recall ever seeing a recommended wet torque. honestly, I don’t think I’m the only one that finds this subject a little baffling, on the one hand it seems pretty wise to follow the recommendation, on the other hand I’ve pretty much proven that it doesn’t work. What’s a guy to do?
(Also, what I have been doing is working, perhaps the question should be why are manufacturers recommending practices that are fairly universally accepted to be unreliable?)

 

[MallardSX2]

A machinists handbook and a set of calipers goes a long ways.

 

[wapitibob]

I put over 40# on nightforce ring caps trying to keep a swfa from moving and nothing happened. I've also put 30# on leupold cross bolts, stepped back to admire my work and 10 seconds later heard them snap like I was making popcorn.

 

[Pickettpuncher]

You got the concept right, but absolutely do not use Play-Doh. That stuff has salt in it. It will encourage rust in your screw holes. Use modeling clay if you don’t want to use Johnsons wax or shoe polish wax.

I’ve had playdoh rust an action overnight. Plumbers putty these days.

 

[Formidilosus]

(Also, what I have been doing is working, perhaps the question should be why are manufacturers recommending practices that are fairly universally accepted to be unreliable?)

Because the manufacturers are going off of “supposed to”, not “does”. They haven’t tested what they are saying.

You know what you don’t see in touring videos of optics companies? Pallets of ammo.

 

[Drenalin]

Got the rail bonded to the action tonight with JB Weld. I went ahead and used the JB on the screws too; I really don’t want any of this to move. Going to let it cure and mount the scope tomorrow night.

 

[fwafwow]

This thread raised some questions for me. I’ve got two rifles with 6-48 screws for which I just got Murphy Precision rails. Should I get the rifle changed to 8-40? Loc-tire or JB weld and max out the torque? Every time I think I’ve got down mounting, or something else, there is more I learn.

 

[Drenalin]

This thread raised some questions for me. I’ve got two rifles with 6-48 screws for which I just got Murphy Precision rails. Should I get the rifle changed to 8-40? Loc-tire or JB weld and max out the torque? Every time I think I’ve got down mounting, or something else, there is more I learn.

FWIW, I think the recommended torque on 8-40 screws only jumps to 25 in-lbs.