How do we get a heavy (120+ grain) 6mm bullet made?

[Formidilosus]

No doubt the time spend lobbying, emailing, crunching numbers and analyzing would be better off choosing the already existing higher BC 25cal and shooting with it.

No. As my last post stated- jumping to a 135gr type bullet demonstrably reduces the ability to spot shots your own shots from anything other than perfect prone.

 

[180ls1]

No. As my last post stated- jumping to a 135gr type bullet demonstrably reduces the ability to spot shots your own shots from anything other than perfect prone.

If that's what you want the 6mm 110 Atip pushes the BC over 600 and can get 3K fps in a mild recoiling setup. Would be great in a creed.

 

[Smenning]

Yes and no. Yes, they work, but you are limited to three bullets total that are even decent- if you can’t find those, there are no other alternatives. And, in something like a 25CM- there is no factory ammo. The .257 is like .277- the support just isn’t there.

No, it doesn’t do the same thing because 133-135gr bullets causes enough muzzle movement to be noticeably less “shootable”. A couple of ft-lbs difference in recoil makes a noticeable difference in spotting shots.

8.5lb riles-

6cm 120gr= 11 ft-lbs
25CM 135gr= 13 ft-lbs

16% more recoil


6UM 120gr= 19 ft-lbs
25UM 135gr= 22 ft-lbs

15% more recoil and in cartridges like these it matters, as the 6UM is already at the limit of spotting one’s own shots for good shooters.

That’s helpful, thanks. I don’t have a horse in the race, trying to decided between the two.

 

[Formidilosus]

If that's what you want the 6mm 110 Atip pushes the BC over 600 and can get 3K fps in a mild recoiling setup. Would be great in a creed.

Inconsistent terminal performance.

 

[Formidilosus]

That’s helpful, thanks. I don’t have a horse in the race, trying to decided between the two.

Well, if you are looking at something in the 243/6cm/25cm class, the 6CM with 103gr ELD-X, 108gr ELD-M, etc are great. Yes a 115-120gr TMK type bullet would be awesome, but that really comes into play when you are getting into something like a 6PRC or 6UM.

 

[180ls1]

Inconsistent terminal performance.

Whats inherently less consistent about them compared to the eldm?

 

[Smenning]

Well, if you are looking at something in the 243/6cm/25cm class, the 6CM with 103gr ELD-X, 108gr ELD-M, etc are great. Yes a 115-120gr TMK type bullet would be awesome, but that really comes into play when you are getting into something like a 6PRC or 6UM.

I have a 300WSM to re-barrel I’d be leaning towards the UM/PRC… appreciate the feedback

 

[Formidilosus]

Whats inherently less consistent about them compared to the eldm?

Sometimes they do not upset at all, sometimes they fragment violently. And, that isn’t consistent from lot to lot of bullets.

 

[B23]

jumping to a 135gr type bullet demonstrably reduces the ability to spot shots your own shots from anything other than perfect prone.

You certainly seem like someone that knows this stuff very well and I sincerely mean that but you don't think the above is maybe just a little over stated?

 

[ddowning]

You certainly seem like someone that knows this stuff very well and I sincerely mean that but you don't think the above is maybe just a little over stated?

Not Form, but as I said before he even came to the thread, he is 100% correct. There is a large difference. If you built a heavier gun and used a brake you could counteract some of that. Everything is a trade-off. A light, short barreled gun is going to be very sensitive to even a little extra recoil.

 

[B23]

Not Form, but as I said before he even came to the thread, he is 100% correct. There is a large difference. If you built a heavier gun and used a brake you could counteract some of that. Everything is a trade-off. A light, short barreled gun is going to be very sensitive to even a little extra recoil.

Fair enough. Except for small caliber stuff I don't really have anything in the sub 9lb range, especially, since I screw a can on the end of nearly everything. My 25 SAUM ready to shoot with SAS Barricade screwed on the end will likely be 10-ish lbs so it won't be particularly LW either.

 

[Formidilosus]

don't think the above is maybe just a little over stated?

No. Demonstrably means it can be shown. Anyone that has shot an 8lb 6cm with 108’s to 115gr bullets and an identical 6.5cm with 130’s back to back has seen that. I generally choose 130gr in 6.5cm over higher BC 140+ for that reason- spotting more shots from all positions.

 

[Axlrod]

You certainly seem like someone that knows this stuff very well and I sincerely mean that but you don't think the above is maybe just a little over stated?

I have a 25 Prc on a Tikka (135 gr. bullet) and a 6 Creed Seekins Havak Element (108 gr. bullet). The seekins is lighter, but noticeably easier to spot shots with. Have shot them side by side with the same brake, and with the same suppressor.

 

[Dobermann]

No. Demonstrably means it can be shown. Anyone that has shot an 8lb 6cm with 108’s to 115gr bullets and an identical 6.5cm with 130’s back to back has seen that. I generally choose 130gr in 6.5cm over higher BC 140+ for that reason- spotting more shots from all positions.

What 130s are you using? Handloaded ELD-Ms?

I seem to recall there were some limitations with 129g SSTs. I wonder whether Hornady would ever offer their 130 ELD-Ms in loaded ammunition?

 

[Formidilosus]

What 130s are you using? Handloaded ELD-Ms?

I seem to recall there were some limitations with 129g SSTs. I wonder whether Hornady would ever offer their 130 ELD-Ms in loaded ammunition?

Mostly 130gr TMK, 130gr ELD-M, and 130gr Berger OTM Hybrid AR. Of those my presence is the TMK for it terminal behavior. The ELD-M is his as welll, with a bit less penetration at higher impact velocities and less upset at lower impact velocities. The Berger 130gr OTM Hybrid AR is a very good bullet, but needs to be kept at 2,050fps ‘ish or higher for reliable upset.

 

[Dobie07]

Alright I’ve now officially got skin in the game with a 6 PRC on order from UM. Based on all the replies it seems like Hornady is our best bet… anyone got an in with Hornadys ballistician(s)?

I did find this interesting post from nearly a decade ago with some relevant info. Link

 

[Tom-D]

Alright I’ve now officially got skin in the game with a 6 PRC on order from UM. Based on all the replies it seems like Hornady is our best bet… anyone got an in with Hornadys ballistician(s)?

I did find this interesting post from nearly a decade ago with some relevant info. Link

I think iv heard it said that that there eld-vt is half way there just need to fill the cavity with lead instead of having it open to expand more so if thats true surely it isn’t too much of a jump for them to do

 

[Dobie07]

I sent an email to the owner of that precision ballistics company referenced in my previous post. He did mention building 120 grain 6mm bullets for a while during that time period. He said the clients that bought them reported great accuracy. So from that perspective it seems like the question on whether a 120 gr 6mm is feasible or not has been answered. Now we just need to convince a bullet manufacturer to build us some! The precision ballistics guy made sure to inform me he is retired and had no interest in getting back in the game.

 

[wind gypsy]

I sent an email to the owner of that precision bullets company referenced in my previous post. He did mention building 120 grain 6mm bullets for a while during that time period. He said the clients that bought them reported great accuracy. So from that perspective it seems like the question on whether a 120 gr 6mm is feasible or not has been answered. Now we just need to convince a bullet manufacturer to build us some! The precision bullets guy made sure to inform me he is retired and had no interest in getting back in the game.

Did I read it wrong that he made a 125 VLD with a g7 of around .30? If so that sounds like a proof of concept that i wouldn't think there'd be much interest in. 10+ grains more weight to get to 112 match burner or DTAC BC territory.

 

[Dobie07]

Did I read it wrong that he made a 125 VLD with a g7 of around .30? If so that sounds like a proof of concept that i wouldn't think there'd be much interest in. 10+ grains more weight to get to 112 match burner or DTAC BC territory.

I read it as him guesstimating at a BC. I would think if the DTAC is already there and you add 7 grains but keep the design the same the BC would be higher, but it’s theoretical until someone builds one and tests the BC I suppose. I can’t find anywhere that his were ever tested for the actual real world BC.