Here we go again. MT Grizz re-introduction

[khart_6882]

The MO has been If someone gets charged or mauled and the bear doesn’t get killed, the trailheads are then closed. In one case, a horse broke a leg and was killed by the trail. A griz got on the carcass, and FWP closed that trail for 3 weeks from mid September to early October. I don’t have an article to prove that case, but I personally know the guy who had to shoot his horse. He was pissed. Had a camp in that drainage with all his gear. Ended up having to just leave it up there until FWP would allow him to go back and get it.


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Oh gotcha…boy that would be a shitty deal for the guy who had to leave all his gear in there. Also pretty lame that one incident can ruin it for everyone.


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[Jake Larsen]

Oh gotcha…boy that would be a shitty deal for the guy who had to leave all his gear in there. Also pretty lame that one incident can ruin it for everyone.


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To be fair, It sucks for the game wardens/FWP at the ground level also. It’s a management nightmare. If there’s a cranky bear hanging close to a well used trailhead, it’s a time bomb. They get tired of having to chase bears that have had bad human interactions or have been wounded. It’s dangerous and time/resource intensive. A buddy of mine had to kill one three years ago that charged him. Off the record, the warden just said “good job and good shooting” That situation is by far the exception not the rule. A lot of times the bear will either get sprayed or shot but not killed. Then the warden has to go track a wounded/pissed off Grizz. Not exactly fun job. It’s easier and safer for them to just shut the area down. The problem is at the management level, but gets shunted down for the guys on the ground to deal with.

Just as an FYI, my buddies incident happened right in the little window when Griz were de-listed, so no federal investigation. The warden said it would have been a nightmare for him if that had not been the case. He killed it from roughly 40-50 yards. First shot as it dropped into a charge, second shot as it was running at him.

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[johnnycake]

The density of bears in the greater Yellowstone area cannot be overstated. This video is from a trail cam taken this last summer in SW Montana

Yea you saw that correctly. 7 Grizz rolling together in a grizzly gang. Would never have believed it if I didn’t see it. This is NOT normal bear behavior.


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Without more context about what was in that area, primarily what food sources, how can you say that that is not normal bear behavior? With the right food sources to draw bears in I've seen a hell of a lot more than 7 brown/grizzly bears in a single gang.

Personally, I do think state management of grizzlies is going to occur eventually. It's already taken longer than "it should have" and it will take longer still, but we'll get there in the end.

 

[chav0_12]

Please leave a comment for us bitterrooters. We've already got griz up in the west side (bitterroots) and there isnt habitat to support more. Alot of canyons and steep terrain that doesnt support just alot of life. In addition to that the west side gets alot of foot traffic. Alot of people go huckleberry picking in the summer and there will be some nasty interactions. The biologists claim that there arent grizzlies in the sapphires to the east of the bitterroot valley but I came across this in september while elk hunting. Not sure what else it could be.

Ive seen alot of threads about hunters needing to unite. Especially considering we are losing in Colorado. Take a few minutes and lets work together and post some comments about grizzly reintroduction. Like it or not the antis on there posting comments as well.

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I was hunting with a guy that works for FWP in the Sapphires and he said that there were indeed grizzlies in there. He said that they had relocated to sub-adult males in there.

The shocking part about a re-introduction into the Bitterroot is that there are already known bears in there. Maybe the USFW doesn't know about them but FWP certainly does. I was under the assumption there was already a plan for the Bitterroot Ecosystem.

 

[a_noob_hunter]

The shocking part about a re-introduction into the Bitterroot is that there are already known bears in there. Maybe the USFW doesn't know about them but FWP certainly does. I was under the assumption there was already a plan for the Bitterroot Ecosystem.

Yeah theres definitely griz in the bitterroots and the FWP knows about it and still denies it pretty heavily. Especially towards the north end of the valley by florence and lolo. We've had griz down by the river up there. I wish the feds would leave it up to the locals and the people that live here to decide how they want to manage their mountain range instead of making it so everyone else can say about it

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[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I was hunting with a guy that works for FWP in the Sapphires and he said that there were indeed grizzlies in there. He said that they had relocated to sub-adult males in there.

The shocking part about a re-introduction into the Bitterroot is that there are already known bears in there. Maybe the USFW doesn't know about them but FWP certainly does. I was under the assumption there was already a plan for the Bitterroot Ecosystem.

No different than when they "re-introduced" wolves to the Bob. The outfitter we hunted with in '21 has operated there for more than 30 years, and said there were always wolves that traveled south from across the border. However, the population exploded when they were "re-introduced" without any good reason. Between wolves, lions, black bears, and grizz, the Bob is more or less a wasteland for ungulates.

 

[chav0_12]

I wish the feds would leave it up to the locals and the people that live here to decide how they want to manage their mountain range instead of making it so everyone else can say about it

That's the scariest part about it. People from anywhere can say whatever and those voices seem to always be the loudest. I personally don't mind too much hunting in grizz country, I won't do it alone, but I don't mind it if I have another set of ears and eyes with me. It's getting more and more difficult to find good elk hunting ground where there aren't girzzlies. That's going to make it tough when it's time for me to take my daughters hunting.

 

[chav0_12]

No different than when they "re-introduced" wolves to the Bob. The outfitter we hunted with in '21 has operated there for more than 30 years, and said there were always wolves that traveled south from across the border. However, the population exploded when they were "re-introduced" without any good reason. Between wolves, lions, black bears, and grizz, the Bob is more or less a wasteland for ungulates.

I've heard that same thing too. I have a buddy that went hunting there in 2019(?) and he said it was bad. Granted he did say the outfitter he went with was garbage. But, he said they saw like 10 elk in 7 days, but they heard and saw wolves all the time.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Without more context about what was in that area, primarily what food sources, how can you say that that is not normal bear behavior? With the right food sources to draw bears in I've seen a hell of a lot more than 7 brown/grizzly bears in a single gang.

Personally, I do think state management of grizzlies is going to occur eventually. It's already taken longer than "it should have" and it will take longer still, but we'll get there in the end.

You’re correct about needing context on that trail cam. It was taken in a wilderness area in SW Montana, nowhere near a garbage dump. There’s no salmon streams here, no concentrated food sources. I’m very familiar with the area that video came from. FWP has had to relocate dozens of bears in a single year from this area in the past.

I wish I felt the same way about the management. But unfortunately all the trends are pointing in the opposite direction. It’s hard to find a place where predator management is moving in the direction of biology based decision making. Quite the opposite…and the emotions around the big predators make it an easy win for the anti hunting types. Every altercation, every bear or wolf killed is easy fodder for them to peddle to the masses and gain support to keep these animals listed and hunts shut down. Wait until one of these named CO wolves gets smoked crossing the border into WY. Want to stoke anti/hunting fervor? What better way…and the Grizz will be the same way. Add in the politics of federal judges able to shut these hunts down, and I’ll be surprised to see it ever happen. Take a look at BC. Every indication points to that future.

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[Randy11]

Yeah theres definitely griz in the bitterroots and the FWP knows about it and still denies it pretty heavily. Especially towards the north end of the valley by florence and lolo. We've had griz down by the river up there. I wish the feds would leave it up to the locals and the people that live here to decide how they want to manage their mountain range instead of making it so everyone else can say about it

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FWP has been putting out a bunch of information on the grizzly bear sightings in the Bitterroot. They're definitely not denying it.

 

[johnnycake]

You’re correct about needing context on that trail cam. It was taken in a wilderness area in SW Montana, nowhere near a garbage dump. There’s no salmon streams here, no concentrated food sources. I’m very familiar with the area that video came from. FWP has had to relocate dozens of bears in a single year from this area in the past.


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A dead cow or elk could easily pull 7 bears to it though. I've seen a spring moose carcass pull a dozen different bears within a day. Is there black bear baiting in the area? Etc. Lots of possibilities.

 

[a_noob_hunter]

FWP has been putting out a bunch of information on the grizzly bear sightings in the Bitterroot. They're definitely not denying it.

Maybe I should rephrase that. They dont completely deny it but i know incidents in which the griz have made it down into the valley were definitely kept hush hush. Rather than acknowledging it and making people aware it was more of a dont tell anyone

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[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I've heard that same thing too. I have a buddy that went hunting there in 2019(?) and he said it was bad. Granted he did say the outfitter he went with was garbage. But, he said they saw like 10 elk in 7 days, but they heard and saw wolves all the time.

10 elk in 7 days is 9 more than 8 hunters and 4 guides observed in 8 days of hunting when we were there. We saw around a dozen mule deer in 8 days without any bucks. It was actually pretty spooky how few animals there were in the thousands of acres of land we glassed. Not even many birds, and this was mid-September.

 

[Jake Larsen]

A dead cow or elk could easily pull 7 bears to it though. I've seen a spring moose carcass pull a dozen different bears within a day. Is there black bear baiting in the area? Etc. Lots of possibilities.

Illegal to bait bears in MT

If a dead cow elk is drawing 7 bears to it, there’s way to freaking many bears in that area. Think about that density of bears on one mountain side. Why wouldn’t they spread out? Competition. Which means there’s likely that density of bears in the entire surrounding area.

In this particular case, I KNOW for a fact that’s what’s going on here. Because I know the area, and some of the people who manage the area. They have relocated an incredible number of bears from here in the last couple years alone.

Also, I’ve seen bears on a carcass a bunch of times. And seen a lot of videos of bears on carcasses. I’ve never seen multiple griz OR black bears on a single carcass at the same time, unless it’s a sow with cubs. Im talking about interior grizzly bears. Costal brown bears are a different story. I’m sure it happens, but it’s not normal. What IS normal, is to see a bear claim a carcass, lay on it, and eat it for several days. Bears are notoriously pretty cranky about their food…that’s kinda the #1 rule for not getting mauled. They aren’t exactly known for sharing.

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[Jake Larsen]

Illegal to bait bears in MT

If a dead cow elk is drawing 7 bears to it, there’s way to freaking many bears in that area. Think about that density of bears on one mountain side. Why wouldn’t they spread out? Competition. Which means there’s likely that density of bears in the entire surrounding area.

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[chav0_12]

10 elk in 7 days is 9 more than 8 hunters and 4 guides observed in 8 days of hunting when we were there. We saw around a dozen mule deer in 8 days without any bucks. It was actually pretty spooky how few animals there were in the thousands of acres of land we glassed. Not even many birds, and this was mid-September.

I think it was one herd of cows. But yeah, he said it was bad, he was there in October.

 

[johnnycake]

Illegal to bait bears in MT

If a dead cow elk is drawing 7 bears to it, there’s way to freaking many bears in that area. Think about that density of bears on one mountain side. Why wouldn’t they spread out? Competition. Which means there’s likely that density of bears in the entire surrounding area.

In this particular case, I KNOW for a fact that’s what’s going on here. Because I know the area, and some of the people who manage the area. They have relocated an incredible number of bears from here in the last couple years alone.

Also, I’ve seen bears on a carcass a bunch of times. And seen a lot of videos of bears on carcasses. I’ve never seen multiple griz OR black bears on a single carcass, unless it’s a sow with cubs. I’m sure it happens, but it’s not normal. What IS normal, is to see a bear claim a carcass, lay on it, and eat it for several days. Bears are notoriously pretty cranky about their food…that’s kinda the #1 rule for not getting mauled. They aren’t exactly known for sharing.

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I've seen multiple sows each with cubs on a single carcass before. Bears are inherently unpredictable, but my experience is that boars will aggressively defend against all other intruders. Sows without cubs the same. Sows with cubs are very aggressive towards boars (and people), but can be tolerant of other sows with cubs. Seeing that video with 7 is interesting to be sure. Definitely looks like a mix of sows and older cubs (~3yrs).

 

[Jake Larsen]

I've seen multiple sows each with cubs on a single carcass before. Bears are inherently unpredictable, but my experience is that boars will aggressively defend against all other intruders. Sows without cubs the same. Sows with cubs are very aggressive towards boars (and people), but can be tolerant of other sows with cubs. Seeing that video with 7 is interesting to be sure. Definitely looks like a mix of sows and older cubs (~3yrs).

I think we mostly agree on the bear behavior aspect of this. My point remains - in this context, if there’s seven bears in one place, there’s a population density issue. I posted the video just as a way to demonstrate a known problem. The density of bears in the greater Yellowstone area is ridiculous. Both on the MT and WY side, many people get killed/mauled every year, and there are TONS of bad encounters.


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[tdhanses]

I'm so sick of grizzlies in NW MT. This last season, once we finally had some snow on the ground, there were multiple sets of fresh tracks every single day. Wandering the roads and trails hoping to cut a trail where someone dragged or packed out a deer/elk. I know of at least 6 game animals that were lost to bears this past season, and that's from stories relayed from only 4 people. One guys group lost 3 cow elk to 3 different bears in one area.

I lost half of my deer to a grizzly that picked up my track at the trailhead and followed it back over 3.5 miles. I was back there in less than 12 hours to finish packing out and the bastard had drug the gut carcass and the quarters, that I'd stashed a good distance away, into one pile and was camped out on it. He was honky as hell, too. I yelled at him from about 200 yards and he jumped up like he was ready to fight anything and everything. I went back to sniff around around Christmas, 3 or so weeks later, and still cut 4 different sets of grizzly tracks. Around that same time, we had one wander through our yard, too.

Thankfully I have some private ground to hunt in central MT for my daughters to enjoy. They won't go in the woods with me around home.

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I get that but grizz are not decimating deer, elk and moose like wolves have. I also agree it’s time for a grizz season but that isn’t going to happen they need to relocate them into their traditional areas with a good habitat for them since we can’t manage them, like San Francisco.

 

[Jake Larsen]

I get that but grizz are not decimating deer, elk and moose like wolves have. I also agree it’s time for a grizz season but that isn’t going to happen they need to relocate them into their traditional areas with a good habitat for them since we can’t manage them, like San Francisco.

Both black bears and grizzly bears are VERY hard on ungulate populations. The number one killer of fawns is bears. Adult predation goes to the wolves, but bears are no joke on ungulates.

This is why some of us advocate so hard for black bear hunting. It could make a very real difference, and the population is out of control. 2022's bear harvest around 730 bears.The population estimate for the state is between 10,000-15,000. And I’d take those numbers with a serious grain of salt.

Some have jokingly proposed that in order to hold an elk/deer tag in the fall, you should have to punch a spring bear tag.

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