Help Me Archery Experts

[Billy Goat]

Okay gotcha, I appreciate it. It’s not that I am planning for a shoulder shot, I am just a freak about accuracy and I obsess over things like this. I just really want to be able to be confident that if I do hit the shoulder, I have equipment that gives me the best shot at still taking the animal. The deer I lost was not completely my fault, it was mostly a stroke of bad luck but nevertheless, I feel that I could’ve and should’ve had a better outcome. But yeah I understand and I agree with you. Maybe I’ll just stick to what I’ve got and try out a 100 grain IW for kicks and gigs.


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Understand that your arrow goes where you are looking. I have a friend that hit an elk early in his hunting career in the shoulder knuckle, he ends up still hitting it more frequentlythan he should. It's what is always on his mind when shooting at one now, and inadvertently his attention goes there.


So instead of thinking on one poor shot when you are hunting, think of where you are going to put that arrow. Pick the hair you want to hit, focus on it. The arrow will go where you are looking and concentrating most of the time.

 

[camelcluch]

100 grains just like the QAD. If you want to add weight then id buy a similar but cheaper head to mess with.

 

[Eastonsgrandpa]

Iron Will is selling singles and I have been wanting to try them out. I have a Matthew’s V3X at 27.5 DL and 65 lbs. I was thinking I may crank it up to 70, switch to a 4 vane helical setup with Vanetec swift 2.88’s and 150 gr single bevels with a 50 gr insert on a 300 spine Easton Axis 4mm long range (approx. 27 in long). Will probably throw a 5gr wrap on the back too for better FOC. I have been shooting QAD Exodus 100gr but lost a deer this year with a shoulder shot. Thoughts on switching to this heavier setup? Is it worth a shot? I just haven’t felt super confident with my current setup, and it doesn’t seem super stable and is also on the lighter side (420-430 gr).


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My $.02. I wouldn’t worry too much about FOC. I know it’s the hot topic, but having decent, 10-13% is plenty and one of the least important parts.

Unless you are shooting thirty and in, I’d say shoot for an arrow in the 425 grain range and change to a 100 or 125 grain head. If you can pull 70, definitely do that.

Adding weight to the back decreases FOC and adding to the front increases it.

I too shoot four vanes and disagree that it doesn’t help. I use a two to three degree helical and my groups past 60 are far tighter than with 3 vanes.

With a short draw, you’ll want as fast an arrow with decent weight as you can get to have better trajectory. Again, this assumes you are shooting past 30. If not, go for broke and shoot whatever you want. Perfect arrow flight and a sharp broadhead are your best friend. Let everything else be secondary considerations.

Also, while Iron Will makes great heads, there are dozens of heads that will do as well at a fraction of the cost. I used to shoot IW but for me they don’t fly any better, have a relatively small cut, and get damaged just as easily. Plus they have to be protected so they don’t rust. Too much maintenance for me. I’m going with Evolution heads this year but at lower cost I’d look at Grim Reaper or Slick Trick.

 

[jlw0142]

My $.02. I wouldn’t worry too much about FOC. I know it’s the hot topic, but having decent, 10-13% is plenty and one of the least important parts.

Unless you are shooting thirty and in, I’d say shoot for an arrow in the 425 grain range and change to a 100 or 125 grain head. If you can pull 70, definitely do that.

Adding weight to the back decreases FOC and adding to the front increases it.

I too shoot four vanes and disagree that it doesn’t help. I use a two to three degree helical and my groups past 60 are far tighter than with 3 vanes.

With a short draw, you’ll want as fast an arrow with decent weight as you can get to have better trajectory. Again, this assumes you are shooting past 30. If not, go for broke and shoot whatever you want. Perfect arrow flight and a sharp broadhead are your best friend. Let everything else be secondary considerations.

Also, while Iron Will makes great heads, there are dozens of heads that will do as well at a fraction of the cost. I used to shoot IW but for me they don’t fly any better, have a relatively small cut, and get damaged just as easily. Plus they have to be protected so they don’t rust. Too much maintenance for me. I’m going with Evolution heads this year but at lower cost I’d look at Grim Reaper or Slick Trick.

That’s really good advice. I appreciate it. I would say my maximum effective range is 50 and I like to shoot past that for fun, so yeah you’re making sense. You’ve sold me on four vanes, that’s what I was wanting to do but have heard lots of mixed reviews


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[Zac]

Well, my reason for the single was that I felt it would fly better with my helical, helping it rotate rather than fighting it. What do you think? Also, you don’t think a heavier setup is necessarily beneficial?


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It is possible that the single bevel breaches bone better than a double bevel. I would say that it would certainly do better than a 3 blade. So if it’s an itch you have to scratch just go ahead and get the IW 100 grain SB. It is a great product.

 

[sndmn11]

I think you are spinning your wheels with the concept that a purchase will buy holes in bone.

The best arrow flight possible will yield better results, regardless of if it is heavy or light, and then move your pin over to the rib cage rather than the shoulder.

 

[jlw0142]

I think you are spinning your wheels with the concept that a purchase will buy holes in bone.

The best arrow flight possible will yield better results, regardless of if it is heavy or light, and then move your pin over to the rib cage rather than the shoulder.

Yeah, I agree with you. My thoughts were heavier = more stable, more penetration, and better flight. Obviously tradeoffs, but I wasn’t just thinking that an IW broadhead is going to magically solve my problems.


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[sndmn11]

My thoughts were heavier = more stable, more penetration, and better flight.


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I don't know that I could be convinced about any of the three. I think the answer is in clean magical flight (tuning) and that can happen anywhere in the velocity/weight trade-off window.

 

[Zac]

Yeah, I agree with you. My thoughts were heavier = more stable, more penetration, and better flight. Obviously tradeoffs, but I wasn’t just thinking that an IW broadhead is going to magically solve my problems.


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All of that is true. A heavier shaft will undoubtedly give you better penetration. You don’t achieve that by just throwing all the weight in the front. Get a program like Archers Advantage and see what you can get away with. Do not just pull some random ass number out of the sky and stick it on the front of your shaft.

 

[Kularrow]

It’s wild to me dudes shoulder blast something then want to throw away their entire set up like it might not happen again next time lol it’s bowhunting. Just because you pay iron Will bill an absurd amount of money doesn’t mean you’re going to recover a deer. Shoot more, get closer and save your money. Don’t over think this.

 

[jlw0142]

It’s wild to me dudes shoulder blast something then want to throw away their entire set up like it might not happen again next time lol it’s bowhunting. Just because you pay iron Will bill an absurd amount of money doesn’t mean you’re going to recover a deer. Shoot more, get closer and save your money. Don’t over think this.

Didn’t say I was throwing away my setup. Just wanted to try something new. I wanted arrow advice, I didn’t need hunting advice. Doing fine on that.


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[Kularrow]

Didn’t say I was throwing away my setup. Just wanted to try something new. I wanted arrow advice, I didn’t need hunting advice. Doing fine on that.


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Apparently not. Some poor fellow with a busted shoulder became a coyote lunchable.

 

[jlw0142]

Apparently not. Some poor fellow with a busted shoulder became a coyote lunchable.

Compare our profile pics and get back to me.


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[Zac]

I agree that the get closer practice more posts are unhelpful. I would prefer those people STFU as well. You can build a system that gives you the opportunity to break bone. It just depends on your budget. You can call Brent at Valkyrie. You can use Iron Wills custom arrow builder as well. You can even use Ranch Fairy’s system with Sirius. All will give you very heavy shafts with bullet proof components, and insanely durable sharp broadheads. Just be prepared to pay a hefty price.

 

[jlw0142]

I agree that the get closer practice more posts are unhelpful. I would prefer those people STFU as well. You can build a system that gives you the opportunity to break bone. It just depends on your budget. You can call Brent at Valkyrie. You can use Iron Wills custom arrow builder as well. You can even use Ranch Fairy’s system with Sirius. All will give you very heavy shafts with bullet proof components, and insanely durable sharp broadheads. Just be prepared to pay a hefty price.

Appreciate that Zac, I’ll look into those options for sure


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[sndmn11]

I agree that the get closer practice more posts are unhelpful. I would prefer those people STFU as well.

I think from what he has written those types of comments have merit and highlight that step 1 of making the scapula a non-issue is not shooting it.

I think it is good to think about the equipment aspect from the stand point of might X be better, but not from the standpoint of X will solve my problem.

I think the below comments from him are what stood out to me as being contradictory, and why I mentioned moving the pin over to the ribs. If our goal is to help, I think it's fair to not let the mental aspect of a high pressure killing shot be forgotten. That includes in the moment, the practice leading up to it, visualization of shots, anatomy, etc.

When I do read poor results on here, there seems to be shared attribution across archer/tuning/equipment.

Yeah, it’s unfortunate about the shoulder shot situation
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It’s not that I am planning for a shoulder shot, I am just a freak about accuracy and I obsess over things like this.

...The deer I lost was not completely my fault, it was mostly a stroke of bad luck

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@jlw0142 if you really wished to switch broadheads, my personal suggestion would be to get some 125gr and 150gr field points and see if either will bare shaft tune with your current arrows. If they will, I am a fan of the cutthroat 2 blades; the standard versions are very forgiving and don't demand much for tuning, the 150 wide takes a little bit more effort. I have a few dozen 125gr 2 blades and can send you some to try IF you take my above advice and test tune some bare shafts.

 

[jbelz]

Well, my reason for the single was that I felt it would fly better with my helical, helping it rotate rather than fighting it. What do you think? Also, you don’t think a heavier setup is necessarily beneficial?


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In my experience, the only measurable benefit to a single bevel broadhead is they're easier to sharpen. You will not see a change in accuracy over a double-bevel, they don't split bone better, and they don't "continue rotating through the animal." Even if they did (which they don't), you'd effectively be eliminating all of those perceived "getting through the shoulder" advantages. They're fine broadheads, but I won't buy them, and I won't buy a single-bevel pocket knife. Sharpening things is fun!

 

[jlw0142]

I think from what he has written those types of comments have merit and highlight that step 1 of making the scapula a non-issue is not shooting it.

I think it is good to think about the equipment aspect from the stand point of might X be better, but not from the standpoint of X will solve my problem.

I think the below comments from him are what stood out to me as being contradictory, and why I mentioned moving the pin over to the ribs. If our goal is to help, I think it's fair to not let the mental aspect of a high pressure killing shot be forgotten. That includes in the moment, the practice leading up to it, visualization of shots, anatomy, etc.

When I do read poor results on here, there seems to be shared attribution across archer/tuning/equipment.




@jlw0142 if you really wished to switch broadheads, my personal suggestion would be to get some 125gr and 150gr field points and see if either will bare shaft tune with your current arrows. If they will, I am a fan of the cutthroat 2 blades; the standard versions are very forgiving and don't demand much for tuning, the 150 wide takes a little bit more effort. I have a few dozen 125gr 2 blades and can send you some to try IF you take my above advice and test tune some bare shafts.

I appreciate it, man. Good stuff. I couldn’t agree more with you about the mental aspect. I am a capable archer and hunter which is why I got frustrated with the other fella. This deer I’ve referred to was stopped with his head behind a tree and stepped back as I shot to look around the tree, resulting in the shoulder shot. It was a stroke of bad luck, but I still felt I could’ve gotten a little better penetration through the bone, as it broke off a few inches in. I’m trying a new fletch so I’ll certainly strip them on a couple arrows and do some bareshaft tuning.


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[sconnieVLP]

I settled on a grain weight for my broadheads (in my case 100gr) and then tinkered with insert/component weights instead of spending more money on broadheads.

I don't glue inserts in permanently anymore though, I use blue glue and glue the broadhead and insert into the arrow as one piece. I've found it saves a lot of hassle when trying to set the depth of the insert and indexing broadheads.

 

[sndmn11]

I appreciate it, man. Good stuff. I couldn’t agree more with you about the mental aspect. I am a capable archer and hunter which is why I got frustrated with the other fella. This deer I’ve referred to was stopped with his head behind a tree and stepped back as I shot to look around the tree, resulting in the shoulder shot. It was a stroke of bad luck, but I still felt I could’ve gotten a little better penetration through the bone, as it broke off a few inches in. I’m trying a new fletch so I’ll certainly strip them on a couple arrows and do some bareshaft tuning.


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Perfect! I think that's relevant information for sure. I had read your comments I quoted and filled in the blanks for myself to something like "he says he cares about being precise, and then scapula shot, I bet he is aiming at the scapula thinking he is holding tight behind it".

Do you think a faster arrow would have gotten to the ribs before the scapula moved to block it?

For bareshafts, I leave the bases on and just clip the wing of the vane off so there's like 1/8" rib. I have no evidence it matters, but it makes me feel better hypothesizing that I am more like 10gr off rather than 20gr..