Arrow build to break deer leg near joint

[Beendare]

The simple solution to improving penetration is adding arrow weight.

By bumping up your arrow weight 150 gr you improve penetration but create other problems.....like missing low.

The 'supposed' Moses of bowhunting arrows wouldn't know that as he mostly shot animals for his penetration tests that were already dead.

....

 

[SDHNTR]

Lots of holier than thous here. No one is trying to hit the shoulder on purpose! But archery is a game of inches and doo-doo happens. The broadhead you are looking for is a VPA.

I’ve unintentionally blown through a bunch of deer shoulders. 440 gr arrow going about 265 FPS.

 

[cgasner1]

Shot that bull at 75 yards you can see the head sticking out it broke thru the blade think you need to spend more time behind that bow to get it turned up to 70 your leaving a lot of energy on the table buying a new head probably won’t fix the issue the arrow needs some horsepower


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[FLAK]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it but check out
Bonebroadheads.com

 

[Mike Islander]

Thanks mike. I tend to agree. Do you have a similar setup?


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I shoot 535 grains at 50 and 60 pounds. Three blade VPA goes right through bone. 20 FOC gives great penetration.

 

[beforethehunt]

I shoot 535 grains at 50 and 60 pounds. Three blade VPA goes right through bone. 20 FOC gives great penetration.

What’s your arrow speed?


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[Mike Islander]

What’s your arrow speed?


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I have no idea of actual arrow speed. Using IBO I calculate 200 fps at 50# draw weight. 0.47 slugs and 47 ft-pnds.

 

[5MilesBack]

I’ve unintentionally blown through a bunch of deer shoulders. 440 gr arrow going about 265 FPS.

This is where definitions help. As Jmez always says "the shoulder is a joint". I've blown through a few shoulder blades without issue, and I've blown through that elk humerus without issue. But that actual "shoulder"........as in joint, is a large knuckle where the blade comes together with the humerus. I've never seen any bowhunter blow through an elk knuckle.........some bullets don't even make it through. As for deer........I guess it could be possible but I'd have to see that or test it.

 

[beforethehunt]

I am hoping to kill on a worst case scenario such as hitting Heavy bone near the knuckle of a 300 lb deer such as a qaurtering to shot (deer is broad side but turns as I shoot) or if aim just behind the shoulder but I hit left of where I planned


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[Mudflap621]

Practice and stay away from the shoulder. I’ve seen a 12 gauge slug stopped by shoulder so I try not to go there with an arrow. Imo I don’t care if your shooting 85 lb elephant bow with 1000gr arrows i hate when people just try to blast it through the shoulder. A lot of variables, your ruining meat too. As stated study your anatomy at wait for better shot angles. Double lung never fails but I in no circumstance try to go through a leading shoulder.

 

[MattB]

Ashby found a threshold at around 650 grs which resulted in a significantly higher chance of breaking heavy bone.

 

[beforethehunt]

Practice and stay away from the shoulder. I’ve seen a 12 gauge slug stopped by shoulder so I try not to go there with an arrow. Imo I don’t care if your shooting 85 lb elephant bow with 1000gr arrows i hate when people just try to blast it through the shoulder. A lot of variables, your ruining meat too. As stated study your anatomy at wait for better shot angles. Double lung never fails but I in no circumstance try to go through a leading shoulder.

I agree. Thanks


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[beforethehunt]

Ashby found a threshold at around 650 grs which resulted in a significantly higher chance of breaking heavy bone.

I’m trying to be able to do it with a slightly lower weight 550-600 or maybe even 500. Brunk outdoors on YouTube showed a goodvideo breaking the heavy part of the leg near the shoulder joint with a 500 grain high FOC arrow with a 150 grain helix


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[Wrench]

I have no idea of actual arrow speed. Using IBO I calculate 200 fps at 50# draw weight. 0.47 slugs and 47 ft-pnds.

My #50 longbows shoot a 530 @ 185ish over my chronograph.

 

[beforethehunt]

this is a
Good video about high FOC and penetration


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[PathFinder]

Thanks for understanding. I realize that shot placement is paramount but fewer move, things happen etc.
So 542 is your arrow weight. What does 262 mean? What’s your draw length and bow weight? Arrow speed? Have you busted through the humerus/lower leg?


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Yep 262 is arrow speed. I've never shot through a joint on a live animal. Doing testing on fresh joints I brought back from another hunt leave no doubt that it's not any kind of issue. Like a total no doubter. To the point that I'll line up the shoulder on a slight quartering to or away shot in the future.
There are some serious fudds on this site nowadays. Even a 223 will go through a buck deer's shoulder socket. A 6.5 Creedmoor will do it beyond 800 yards. I realize that this paragraph is off topic, but if I were moderating this site I'd ban people for spewing BS that they can't substantiate.
Getting an arrow through a deer shoulder is no great accomplishment. Elk would take a serious setup to work consistently but deer are no big deal.


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[Brandon_SPC]

I have lost several good bucks to shoulder shots and I’m trying to remedy this. My current setup is 62#. 27.5” draw length. 515 grain arrow with 15% FOC. I have some 125 grain helix (single bevel) but thinking of moving to iron will or QAD exodus. Do you have any recommendations? Do any of you have a similar setup that has broken through the heavier part of bucks leg (below the scapula)? Should I look at changing my setup. My momentum is about .059.


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First thing I will say is you can up your odds on penetration but it will never be 100%. But after reading the ashby reports and conducting my own testing on cow femur, elk humerus, and sika deer humerus (whitetail size bones) there are broadheads that tend to preform better than others not doubt. In regards to breaching bone I still thing a 3:1 MA single bevel is the best but then you will probably be getting into weights that you might not be comfortable with. I have great success in bone breaching with broadhead profile like Vandieman (bone 125 grain is roughly the same profile), RMS cutthroats, Ironwill. Now broadheads like the VPA 3 blade would tend to stop because the 3 blade head tends to act like a wedge vs breaking bone like the Ironwill four blade or a 2 blade single bevel. Granted I do not know what would have happened if this bone was under weight and the VPA struck it.

Keep in mind the testing I did was on static bone. The bone is not under weight so there is no animal applying weight that can help break the bone. There is not animal reaction which can hinder penetration, no hide, muscle etc which can dull the edge of the broadhead depending on materials ( and the list goes on).

What I personally would do is first buy yourself a field point test package from 100-200 grains (Ethics archery has them, I also think you can find various ones online) and screw them on the end of your arrow and shoot. This will allow you to see what is the heaviest arrow you are comfortable with in regards to trajectory. Because it won't matter at all if you are not comfortable with your set up. Then build your set up around that weight but before you build I highly recommend reading this. Keep in mind the first 6-7 factors.

https://www.dangercloseoutdoors.com/12-factors/

Below are some pictures of the broadhead tests I did.

Bowtech SR6 Performance 30" 72lbs 610 grain arrow at 270 fps
Broadhead 125 grain Vandieman
Elk leg bone
20 yards




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Elite Energy 35 30" 68lbs 635 grain arrow at about 235-240 fps
Broadhead 150 grain VPA
Elk Humerus
20 yards


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Elite Energy 35 30" 68lbs 635 grain arrow at about 235-240 fps
Broadhead 150 grain Ironwill Solid
Elk Humerus
20 yards



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Elite Energy 35 30" 68lbs 635 grain arrow at about 235-240 fps
Broadhead 150 grain Ironwill solid (top) 150 grain VPA (Bottom)
Elk Humerus same as the pcitures above just a better angle
20 yards



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I think this was with my Elite Energy 32 with Elite Both limbs set at 30" and 75lbs.
This arrow was roughly 743 grains shooting at 243 fps (if i recall correctly)
125 grain Grizzlystik Massai
20 yards


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Elite Energy 32 with Elite Both limbs set at 30" and 75lbs.
I think the arrow weight was roughly 630-640 grain leaving the bow around 260-265 fps
200 grain RMS Cutthroat (Second picture was after the same broadhead being shot into two different cow femurs)
20 yards
fresh cow femur


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Elite Energy 32 with Elite Both limbs set at 30" and 75lbs.
I think the arrow weight was roughly 630-640 grain leaving the bow around 260-265 fps
200 grain GS Samurai (Bad edge chatter with broken tip)
20 yards
cow femur

 

[5MilesBack]

I realize that this paragraph is off topic, but if I were moderating this site I'd ban people for spewing BS that they can't substantiate.

It would be hard to substantiate that a specific arrow setup would blow through shoulder knuckles every time on live animals.

 

[elkstabber]

The OP has lost several good bucks to shoulder shots and wants to improve his setup to allow for shoulder shots. I assume that the OP is talking about whitetails.

Here are some of my experiences. I've mostly hunted with a recurve and am very familiar with the Ashby study. I've taken 50 or so whitetails with archery equipment using a variety of 2, 3, and 4 blade heads. I've also shot a handful of elk and even a wild buffalo (Kaibab Plateau, AZ) so I've modified my setups for heavier animals.

After having shot several elk and the buffalo I became cocky and thought that my setup was perfect. So a few years ago I decided to intentionally shoot a whitetail doe in the shoulder. She was probably less than 100# and quartering to me at 8 yards. I carefully shot her right in the scapula and figured that my arrow would just blow through. Long story short - I never recovered her. Don't do what I did.

My point is that the scapula and the bone below it (femur?) are too unpredictable. Your arrow might hit the scapula high and get full penetration. But, if your arrow hits the scapula low the arrow probably won't penetrate at all. Even single bevel two blade heads won't reliably penetrate. They might or they might not.

DON'T SHOOT A DEER IN THE SCAPULA. That's the best advice I can give.

 

[LukasHB]

As others have made clear, the shot placement is more important than the broadhead, but to offset the potential of catching the bone like you are worried about then most two blades will do just fine especially for a whitetail. You have just had bad luck it seems on catching about the only part of the shoulder on a whitetail that will give you trouble as far as penetration besides the spine.


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