Critique my arrow build - Newbie

[Hschweers]

Going to hit archery for the first time this year. I've gotten comfortable enough with my bow over the last 4 months that I'm looking into building my hunting arrow. I don't know anything but what I've learned from y'all on here. Please critique ANYTHING you see wrong. This will be for deer in the southeast. Ideally would have an arrow that works for anything so I don't have to switch it up if the target changes.

Bow:
Bear Legit - IBO 315. 30" draw, planning to hunt at 60lbs.

Arrow:
Victory RIP TKO - 300 spine (8.8 gpi) cut to 30" CTC.
Inserts - RIP TKO factory 50gr
Vanes - AAE Max Stealth 2.7" (9.2gr/per). 3 fletch, right helical
Wrap - 5gr
Nock - 10.3gr
Head - Kudu Countour+ 125gr.

This setup puts me at 481.9gr, 12.7% FOC, and calculated 248fps.

Looking for advice on a few things:
1) Spine. Is 300 the right choice? Currently shooting 350 spine arrows as my trainer and they shoot well (I think), but I'm also only pulling 52lbs right now and they're only ~420gr.
2) Broadhead. Based on my calcs I could also go to 150gr and be comfortable. I flirted with the Exodus, but something about two blade single bevel has tickled my fancy during my research phase.
3) Length. My bow has a whisker biscuit. With a 30" draw, is 30" CTC too short? Don't fully have the risk of the arrow falling off the rest with a biscuit.

Thanks for any advice!

 

[Billy Goat]

You should be able to use any fixed blade you want at those specs, I wouldn't be worried about the penetration benefits that the kudu might offer over the Exodus.

A 30" draw, even with a WB you can probably use 28" shaft. The Exodus does set back over the shaft a little, but your Berger hole is probably 1 3/4 short of the actual draw, tho if you are shooting it on 30" Bear can go a little long. So basically, assuming your WB sits a good 3/4 behind the Berger hole, I'd bet you can shoot a 28"

With a 315 ibo bow @ 60, and 28" shaft, you could probably use a 350 spine fine. Not too much benefit to it, little bit lighter..


More than likely your "trainer" arrow is fine. Assuming you can put 100gr broadheads on them and get them to tune.

 

[bsnedeker]

I always liked a faster arrow with a fixed blade with whitetails when I lived in the Midwest. The above advice is great... lighter spine, shorter arrow, drop to 100 grains, maybe lighter insert. See if you can get your speed in the 270 to 280 range. That's what I would do anyway.

I'd also recommend you remove the term FOC from your vocabulary... but that's just me!

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

 

[Bump79]

Overall you're in really good shape. The 30" arrow is helping you spine out well and you shouldn't need to change anything. At 60# you could use a 330-350 spine at saw a 29" and be well spined as well.

I second @Billy Goat with not needing a 2b single bevel. Not saying there aren't some benefits but most of it is online hype. With the amount of energy you're pushing I wouldn't worry about penetration with any decent broadhead. You might as well cut a bigger hole as you are just as likely to hit back than forward. Which seems to be completely lost these days.

125 grains in most heads are stouter than 100 as they are designed as a 125 and material is removed to make it 100. Exodus 125 is a great choice, Grim Reaper 150's are super stout, I personally like a fixed 3b for easy sharpening and durability. Tons of good heads out there. If you shoot a single bevel get some with bleeders like Kayuga or IW. Or get a Alien V2 or SBT so you've get a big cut.

You will out penetrate with that setup someone with a 28" draw, 60#, 650 grain arrow and 2b single bevel.

 

[Billy Goat]

I'd also recommend you remove the term FOC from your vocabulary... but that's just me!

I think foc is important to an extent. With a hunting arrow that has a broadhead on the front it's important, or at least way easier to tune if you have 10%. Once you have that 10% it doesn't matter.


That's something that Easton recommends, and I have found it to be true, think they say 10-15% for hunting.

 

[Hschweers]

You should be able to use any fixed blade you want at those specs, I wouldn't be worried about the penetration benefits that the kudu might offer over the Exodus.

A 30" draw, even with a WB you can probably use 28" shaft. The Exodus does set back over the shaft a little, but your Berger hole is probably 1 3/4 short of the actual draw, tho if you are shooting it on 30" Bear can go a little long. So basically, assuming your WB sits a good 3/4 behind the Berger hole, I'd bet you can shoot a 28"

With a 315 ibo bow @ 60, and 28" shaft, you could probably use a 350 spine fine. Not too much benefit to it, little bit lighter..


More than likely your "trainer" arrow is fine. Assuming you can put 100gr broadheads on them and get them to tune.

I measured 2 1/4” from the front side of the WB to the start of the insert with a 30 1/2” arrow. So I guess 28 1/4” would get my insert right up to the whiskers, maybe go 1/4 or 1/2 inch longer?

At 28 3/4” with the 350 spine, 50gr insert, and a 100gr head that would put me at 443gr moving 260fps.

Keeping those things the same but moving to Victory’s 21gr insert I get to 414gr moving 270fps.

I know the main benefit to the Kudu is penetration, but ~according to the internets~ 2 blade single bevels can create more intense internal damage due to the increased rotation. Fact or fiction? Again, I know nothing about this stuff.

 

[Hschweers]

I think foc is important to an extent. With a hunting arrow that has a broadhead on the front it's important, or at least way easier to tune if you have 10%. Once you have that 10% it doesn't matter.


That's something that Easton recommends, and I have found it to be true, think they say 10-15% for hunting.

I haven’t bought into the ultra high FOC hype, but most things I’ve seen say 7-10% on the low end and 15% on the high end. Figured my 12.7% was right in the sweet spot.

Reducing my head to 100, lowering spine to 350, and cutting the arrow to 28 3/4” I get 11.1% with the factory 50gr inserts or 8.8% by going down to the 21gr insert.

 

[bsnedeker]

I measured 2 1/4” from the front side of the WB to the start of the insert with a 30 1/2” arrow. So I guess 28 1/4” would get my insert right up to the whiskers, maybe go 1/4 or 1/2 inch longer?

At 28 3/4” with the 350 spine, 50gr insert, and a 100gr head that would put me at 443gr moving 260fps.

Keeping those things the same but moving to Victory’s 21gr insert I get to 414gr moving 270fps.

I know the main benefit to the Kudu is penetration, but ~according to the internets~ 2 blade single bevels can create more intense internal damage due to the increased rotation. Fact or fiction? Again, I know nothing about this stuff.

I use Kudus myself and took my bull with one last season. Mainly I like the price and the accuracy. It also was still sharp after going through the bull.

That said, I wouldn't worry about it at all shooting whitetails. Unless you hit the very thickest party of the knuckle you are going to bust through anything with a 3 blade head in my experience.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

 

[galamb]

Your length will be fine.

Remember that 50 grain (insert/outsert) adds an inch from the end of the carbon to the broadhead so if you find you need more spine you could cut a bit but shooting a 300 it shouldn't be an issue given your set-up - you could probably even go to a heavier head and still have enough spine.

(I shoot a 30.5" VAP TKO 340's with 95 grain insert/125 grain head which gives me a dynamic spine of 64 pounds - using the (included) 50 grain insert gave me a "too stiff" 71 pound dynamic spine (65 is perfect for my 51 lb bow) - the 300's with your component build should be somewhere in the 85 lb dynamic range)

Do practice at distance with the SB. They can get pretty funky out past 40 yards.

I shoot SB with my recurve but it's slow and I shoot close - tried the same heads at 50 yards shooting 301 fps and my solid 200 grain totally missed the target - they can seriously steer the front end in the direction of the bevel with only a puff of crosswind but your FOC may help keep it on track better (never shot SB with a sub 19% FOC arrow).

The high FOC and SB is an invention of traditional hunters shooting African game at close range and they may not translate well with a higher speed set-up shooting past 40 yards.

 

[Billy Goat]

I haven’t bought into the ultra high FOC hype, but most things I’ve seen say 7-10% on the low end and 15% on the high end. Figured my 12.7% was right in the sweet spot.

Reducing my head to 100, lowering spine to 350, and cutting the arrow to 28 3/4” I get 11.1% with the factory 50gr inserts or 8.8% by going down to the 21gr insert.

I haven't found an internet/program calculator that actually gives an accurate foc, they have all been a little low. I'd bet that 8.8 comes in at 10% when it's actually assembled and measured, but maybe not. Personally I wouldn't want to try to tune a hunting arrow that's under 9% foc, from my experience. But I have a shorter draw length, and it's easier to get a higher foc with a shorter arrow. Talking with Tim G he doesn't care too much about foc, but his arrows are pretty long. Given the same front weight, he has a way lower foc, which makes me wonder if it's more about a certain amount of weight upfront, versus a percentage over a length. But that's a completely different worm hole that I haven't played with enough to come to any conclusions.

I measured 2 1/4” from the front side of the WB to the start of the insert with a 30 1/2” arrow. So I guess 28 1/4” would get my insert right up to the whiskers, maybe go 1/4 or 1/2 inch longer?

At 28 3/4” with the 350 spine, 50gr insert, and a 100gr head that would put me at 443gr moving 260fps.

Keeping those things the same but moving to Victory’s 21gr insert I get to 414gr moving 270fps.

I know the main benefit to the Kudu is penetration, but ~according to the internets~ 2 blade single bevels can create more intense internal damage due to the increased rotation. Fact or fiction? Again, I know nothing about this stuff.

If you are measuring 2.25 infront of the WB, I wouldn't want to take more than 1.75. That won't leave much room with an Exodus, but it will leave enough.


Personally I like being 280+ fps. It's what I'm used to. I have shot setups down to 260 fps for hunting and for me the yardage became too critical as well as the arc.

I wouldn't worry too much about what the internet says about 2b heads, cause this dude on the internet is telling you its fine (stab at humor). I'll tell you it's fine because you are going after deer right now. Once you have your setup tuned you will be able to switch your broadheads out and won't have a change in impact. Last year I had a 6 arrow quiver with 5 different broadheads, they all hit the same out to 65 yards. Hunt deer with an Exodus (a head that is very likely the best mass produced fixed, replaceable blade head), then if you feel like you aren't getting enough penetration (since your arrow only buried in the dirt 9" and you think you want 16") then look at the high end, "boutique " 2B broadheads that are available.
Or a Magnus Stinger.

 

[Holocene]

Seems real slow for a whitetail setup and modern compound…

Been said, but you could explore other components and lose quite a few grains.

Lots of lighter vanes out there. Lose the wrap, go with that 21 grain insert, use 100 grain head.

A 400ish grain arrow would be cooking and be plenty for deer.

 

[Hschweers]

Your length will be fine.

Remember that 50 grain (insert/outsert) adds an inch from the end of the carbon to the broadhead so if you find you need more spine you could cut a bit but shooting a 300 it shouldn't be an issue given your set-up - you could probably even go to a heavier head and still have enough spine.

(I shoot a 30.5" VAP TKO 340's with 95 grain insert/125 grain head which gives me a dynamic spine of 64 pounds - using the (included) 50 grain insert gave me a "too stiff" 71 pound dynamic spine (65 is perfect for my 51 lb bow) - the 300's with your component build should be somewhere in the 85 lb dynamic range)

Do practice at distance with the SB. They can get pretty funky out past 40 yards.

I shoot SB with my recurve but it's slow and I shoot close - tried the same heads at 50 yards shooting 301 fps and my solid 200 grain totally missed the target - they can seriously steer the front end in the direction of the bevel with only a puff of crosswind but your FOC may help keep it on track better (never shot SB with a sub 19% FOC arrow).

The high FOC and SB is an invention of traditional hunters shooting African game at close range and they may not translate well with a higher speed set-up shooting past 40 yards.

Honestly, this is probably the wrong approach to take, but I started to look into dynamic spine a bit and there were plenty of things talking about it, but nothing explaining exactly what it is or what it should be (at least in a way I could understand). So I gave up on it! How is dynamic spine used?

 

[Hschweers]

I haven't found an internet/program calculator that actually gives an accurate foc, they have all been a little low. I'd bet that 8.8 comes in at 10% when it's actually assembled and measured, but maybe not. Personally I wouldn't want to try to tune a hunting arrow that's under 9% foc, from my experience. But I have a shorter draw length, and it's easier to get a higher foc with a shorter arrow. Talking with Tim G he doesn't care too much about foc, but his arrows are pretty long. Given the same front weight, he has a way lower foc, which makes me wonder if it's more about a certain amount of weight upfront, versus a percentage over a length. But that's a completely different worm hole that I haven't played with enough to come to any conclusions.


If you are measuring 2.25 infront of the WB, I wouldn't want to take more than 1.75. That won't leave much room with an Exodus, but it will leave enough.


Personally I like being 280+ fps. It's what I'm used to. I have shot setups down to 260 fps for hunting and for me the yardage became too critical as well as the arc.

I wouldn't worry too much about what the internet says about 2b heads, cause this dude on the internet is telling you its fine (stab at humor). I'll tell you it's fine because you are going after deer right now. Once you have your setup tuned you will be able to switch your broadheads out and won't have a change in impact. Last year I had a 6 arrow quiver with 5 different broadheads, they all hit the same out to 65 yards. Hunt deer with an Exodus (a head that is very likely the best mass produced fixed, replaceable blade head), then if you feel like you aren't getting enough penetration (since your arrow only buried in the dirt 9" and you think you want 16") then look at the high end, "boutique " 2B broadheads that are available.
Or a Magnus Stinger.

I understand the logic behind high speeds = easier shots at range. My plan is to get comfortable to 40 for the season, which I know is laughable to most serious archery guys. I know my limitations, and while I might be able to get good with my bow out to 60 or so, I know once the adrenaline kicks in I won’t want to take those shots. So I’m less concerned about long range trajectory

 

[Billy Goat]

Honestly, this is probably the wrong approach to take, but I started to look into dynamic spine a bit and there were plenty of things talking about it, but nothing explaining exactly what it is or what it should be (at least in a way I could understand). So I gave up on it! How is dynamic spine used?

So we can measure static spine with an actual spine tester. That's a device that has 2 points to rest an arrow on (28" apart), then you hang a weight in the center. If it dips down a half an inch, it's a .500 spine arrow. If it dips down a little over 3/8" it's a .340 spine. The lower the number, the stiffer the arrow and the less it will bend or sag with the weight on it.


The dynamic spine is trying to calculate what it is actually doing while being shot from a bow. It factors in the length, weight on the front, how much is pushing on the back and how fast it goes from zero velocity at full draw to max load on the rear of the shaft. Basically trying calculate how much that shaft will flex upon acceleration.
I don't know if it can be calculated correctly. You can get it close, which is all that any of the programs or charts can really do, then it's a matter of playing with it, seeing what it actually needs. Fortunately compounds can handle a wide range of spine and shoot well. Start playing with a single string bow and it will drive you nuts.

 

[Hschweers]

Seems real slow for a whitetail setup and modern compound…

Been said, but you could explore other components and lose quite a few grains.

Lots of lighter vanes out there. Lose the wrap, go with that 21 grain insert, use 100 grain head.

A 400ish grain arrow would be cooking and be plenty for deer.

Just to go light:

GT air strike (7.8gpi 340 spine) cut to 28.75”, 24.8gr factory insert, 100gr head, AAE pro max hunter (4.7gr/per), and no wrap.

373.5gr total weight, 12.2% FOC, 284fps. Is that sexier/is that the route you would go?

 

[Hschweers]

So we can measure static spine with an actual spine tester. That's a device that has 2 points to rest an arrow on (28" apart), then you hang a weight in the center. If it dips down a half an inch, it's a .500 spine arrow. If it dips down a little over 3/8" it's a .340 spine. The lower the number, the stiffer the arrow and the less it will bend or sag with the weight on it.


The dynamic spine is trying to calculate what it is actually doing while being shot from a bow. It factors in the length, weight on the front, how much is pushing on the back and how fast it goes from zero velocity at full draw to max load on the rear of the shaft. Basically trying calculate how much that shaft will flex upon acceleration.
I don't know if it can be calculated correctly. You can get it close, which is all that any of the programs or charts can really do, then it's a matter of playing with it, seeing what it actually needs. Fortunately compounds can handle a wide range of spine and shoot well. Start playing with a single string bow and it will drive you nuts.

Thanks! How is it used? Like galamb said with a 300 spine arrow and my components I would be at 85 pounds. What does that mean? What should I be at? How is that used?

 

[Billy Goat]

I understand the logic behind high speeds = easier shots at range. My plan is to get comfortable to 40 for the season, which I know is laughable to most serious archery guys. I know my limitations, and while I might be able to get good with my bow out to 60 or so, I know once the adrenaline kicks in I won’t want to take those shots. So I’m less concerned about long range trajectory

Honestly, I have come to think that 45 yards is a max range on whitetail in most situations. It's about more than what you can hit. I can hit pretty small things a good ways out there, but an animal has reaction and the time it takes for the arrow to get there comes into play. I have shot a lot of WT past that 45 yard mark, but the reaction is really hard to predict. Now in my experience Mule deer, Elk, and Bear aren't nearly as quick to react. I haven't hunted Coues deer, but the stories I hear makes me think 30 might be about max for them.

 

[bsnedeker]

Honestly, I have come to think that 45 yards is a max range on whitetail in most situations. It's about more than what you can hit. I can hit pretty small things a good ways out there, but an animal has reaction and the time it takes for the arrow to get there comes into play. I have shot a lot of WT past that 45 yard mark, but the reaction is really hard to predict. Now in my experience Mule deer, Elk, and Bear aren't nearly as quick to react. I haven't hunted Coues deer, but the stories I hear makes me think 30 might be about max for them.

Exactly.... it's not about your range, it's about the reaction time of the animal. Whitetails are the twitchiest critters out there if you ask me. I pretty much never shot past 30 yards... anything more than that the deer is gone by the time the arrow gets there.

Speed is your friend on whitetails.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I'm leery of halfouts, especially aluminum ones. For a .204" diameter arrow, my first choice would be a hidden insert (HIT) and (distant) second would be a steel halfout. If you're willing to entertain a standard diameter (.244-.246") arrow, insert choices become more plentiful and generally more durable.

I've been shooting 150 gr Cutthroat single bevel broadheads for a few years. They're tough heads, fly well for me, and have performed well on the few animals I've shot with them, but I don't think they're any more lethal than a comparable double bevel head. Single bevels do rotate noticeably as they penetrate into a target or animal, but I'm not sure that rotation is really beneficial. There's a greater risk of edge curling with a single bevel and I find them more difficult to sharpen (although I'm not a very good sharpener to begin with).

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Thanks! How is it used? Like galamb said with a 300 spine arrow and my components I would be at 85 pounds. What does that mean? What should I be at? How is that used?

Short answer:
No one talks about spine in units of pounds any more. Spine is expressed as a three digit number that represents shaft deflection measured in thousandths of an inch (e.g., 350 spine = .350" of deflection). Use a spine chart or a calculator (Victory has a free one their website) to estimate the appropriate spine for your draw weight, arrow length, and front end weight.

Longer answer:
The old method of testing static spine (AMO/ATA standard developed for wood arrows) used a 2 lb weight suspended from the middle of a 26" span of shaft and reported spine in units of pounds (calculated as 26 ÷ inches of deflection at midpoint of test shaft). The method now in use (ASTM standard) uses a 1.94 lb weight suspended from the middle of a 28" span of shaft and reports spine in units of inches (measured deflection at midpoint of test shaft). The conversion formula between the two methods is: AMO/ATA spine in pounds = 26 ÷ (0.825 × ASTM spine in inches). Outside of traditional archery circles, you're unlikely to hear anyone speak of spine in terms of pounds.