Good news for Ebiker users on public land.

[MTSasquatch]

Ahh, so you are concerned that too many people will be enjoying the back country.

Have fun with that.

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Is it backcountry if you get to it with an eBike, motorized use, or mechanized use?

 

[Gutshot007]

I guess probably my biggest concern about ebikes is more on a relationship level. I'm concerned about you guys love lives. It's OK to talk to someone if you need to . Kinda like the moped of the 2020's(used to be a joke about that). Honestly I could care less. Happy "charging"lol

 

[Pikespeak]

I think what's missing from this debate is all the research coming out around trail use impacts on wildlife. I believe some of it has been centered around figuring out what has been causing the elk herds to crash in the San Juans. One of the studies found a pretty large impact from hikers and mountain bikes on wildlife in the area, mountain bikes having a wider impact that hikers per individual user. The biggest issue being the massive increase in the REI outdoorsman types multiplied by the impact.

So, with ebikes, you increase the mileage that a person can cover in a day and thus increasing the overall impact to the wildlife in the area. Some out of shape guy might have only been able to do a couple miles of uphill and will now be doing 10 cause he can now get over the ridgeline.

Also, think about this. If it increases the success rates they will have to drop tag numbers which means even less opportunity. There is pretty consistent complaining on this forum about that one. And if the research is true on impact to wildlife of too many users in the backcountry, you'll have a double whammy from that too as herd numbers fall. Finally, I think people see this as a way to get further than other people. You fail to realize that everyone else will be doing it too and you'll be in the exact same situation you were before except with a lot less sacred places and possibly big wildlife impacts on some thing we supposedly all love.

 

[Marbles]

Well, after reading 12 pages of mostly BS, and starting with no real opinion on the matter, I am now against changing things to allow eBikes in more places.

Not really the topic, but I would be fine with kicking out the horse outfitters too. Or, limiting it to one animal per person.

I also thing no motors should apply to all equipment. No generators, no access via aircraft, Etc. Only exception being preservation of life.

As a society we have become very soft. We need to preserve environments that require work and discomfort. Motors are an easy line (or wheels or pack animals).

 

[twall13]

I'm going to share a few of my observations as someone who is frequently outdoors hunting, hiking, running, and mountain biking. I'll share a few personal experiences, take what you will from them.

Last year my brother and his brother-in-law had limited entry elk tags. I went along to help them as a spotter and pack mule. We know the area they planned to hunt fairly well. To access a large meadow the elk hang out around, there is a closed road that heads uphill 1,500 ft. for 6 miles. You can legally hike in, ride horses in, or ride a mountain bike in. I honestly don't know if E-bikes are legal there. That said, knowing the country we decided it was worthwhile to haul mountain bikes with trailers in because if we got an elk it would be all downhill with the elk loaded on the trailers. It sucked hauling a trailer loaded with gear up that hill, way worse than hiking with a loaded pack up the hill like we'd done previously. Over the next few days they each killed mature 6 point elk and we hauled them out, back and forth up and down the hill. In the process, both of our crappy home built bike trailers broke in the rough terrain but we got everything hauled out with a combination of bikes and packing on our backs. When we got to the bottom with our last load we talked to another hunter who was camping at the trailhead in his camp trailer. He had an E-bike and was using it to cruise up the hill each morning to hunt near where we had camped. Right or wrong, it was definitely much easier for him to access than it was for us, hence why he was willing to go back and forth to day hunt an area we had packed in and camped at. I'll also note that he was clearly not in the greatest physical shape, but that E-bike sure expanded his opportunities.

My next observation is from my typical exercise routine. For several years I've been trail running through an area where a chunk of local deer spend the winter. I exercise by headlamp in the early morning hours. I frequently bump deer, who casually move off 50 yards or so and then stop to keep a close eye on me until I'm gone. I've always felt a little guilty for adding stress to them through the winter but it is a heavily used trail they hang out around and it always made me feel better that they never seemed too bothered by my presence. Last month I got a stress fracture in my foot and couldn't run for a while. Still trying to exercise, I switched to my mountain bike which I can do with the fracture. I've noticed a difference with the deer while riding those same trails at the same early hour with my bike light on. I guess because I'm moving faster and come up on them quicker they spook more and are running a lot faster and harder when I bump them on my bike vs. when I'm running. I definitely feel like I'm adding more stress to the deer while riding my bike than when I'm hiking or trail running. I feel like the time of day I'm on the trail plays into this as during daylight hours the deer have typically moved off of the open areas into the trees where they aren't seen from the trail as much. I know I definitely plan to switch back to running as soon as I can and keep my biking on those trails to daylight hours when it's less of an impact on the wildlife in that particular area.

Read into those observations what you will. I don't own an E-bike but I don't necessarily have a problem with them. I don't think they should be allowed everywhere just like I don't think my mountain bike should be allowed everywhere, but I don't have a problem with people using them where legal. That said, I do think we all have a duty to consider how our actions impact wildlife. I personally think changes to how we access the backcountry are coming whether we like it or not. I hope to stay involved in the process as I do think wildlife are being impacted more than ever by people loving the outdoors to death, and yes, I know I'm part of that impact. No matter where you stand in the issues I'm glad the impacts on wildlife are at least part of the conversation regarding E-bikes.

Sorry for the long winded post...

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[hh76]

As a society we have become very soft. We need to preserve environments that require work and discomfort. Motors are an easy line (or wheels or pack animals).

I completely agree, but I don't think it's an E bike issue, but a general access issue. We should be closing off more areas, not opening up more.

 

[PNW bow hunter]

Read into those observations what you will. I don't own an E-bike but I don't necessarily have a problem with them. I don't think they should be allowed everywhere just like I don't think my mountain bike should be allowed everywhere, but I don't have a problem with people using them where legal. That said, I do think we all have a duty to consider how our actions impact wildlife. I personally think changes to how we access the backcountry are coming whether we like it or not. I hope to stay involved in the process as I do think wildlife are being impacted more than ever by people loving the outdoors to death, and yes, I know I'm part of that impact. No matter where you stand in the issues I'm glad the impacts on wildlife are at least part of the conversation regarding E-bikes.

Sorry for the long winded post...

That’s kind of an odd post.

Your worried about people impacting wildlife. You know you chose to exercise in wintering grounds for deer ,and you do it in the dark when they are trying to avoid people. You hurt your foot, start to mountain bike the area in the dark, and you state the bike really spooks the deer.

You state we have a duty to consider how our actions impact wildlife, yet you clearly state YOU believe your actions negativley affect the wildlife, and feel bad.

Are you just waiting for the government to tell you to stop?

 

[twall13]

That’s kind of an odd post.

Your worried about people impacting wildlife. You know you chose to exercise in wintering grounds for deer ,and you do it in the dark when they are trying to avoid people. You hurt your foot, start to mountain bike the area in the dark, and you state the bike really spooks the deer.

You state we have a duty to consider how our actions impact wildlife, yet you clearly state YOU believe your actions negativley affect the wildlife, and feel bad.

Are you just waiting for the government to tell you to stop?

I said in the post I'm running again as soon as my foot heels rather than the higher impact biking. And I didn't mention it but I have altered my biking to trails where I don't run into deer so frequently as I noticed the impact. I'm not waiting for anyone to tell me what to do, I'm telling everyone to be aware of their impact and make efforts to minimize it. I'm not claiming to be perfect or have it all figured out.

And when I say wintering grounds, it's the foothills near my house. The deer are all over, including in the neighborhood all winter. It's pretty amazing to watch how adaptable they are, but also, impossible to completely avoid bumping them if you are outside at all. I'm not going to stay inside to avoid impacting wildlife, that's absurd. I am going to be aware of what activities seem to impact them the most and do what I can to minimize my personal impact while still being active outside.

Judge me how you will, at least I'm trying to be aware of my impacts and take note of ways to improve while still living a healthy life outdoors. I'm not perfect, but I'm trying to improve. I noticed my biking is a higher impact activity, which was my point above, so I'm taking steps to avoid the heavier impact times and places for that activity.

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[Pikespeak]

I said in the post I'm running again as soon as my foot heels rather than the higher impact biking. And I didn't mention it but I have altered my biking to trails where I don't run into deer so frequently as I noticed the impact. I'm not waiting for anyone to tell me what to do, I'm telling everyone to be aware of their impact and make efforts to minimize it. I'm not claiming to be perfect or have it all figured out.

And when I say wintering grounds, it's the foothills near my house. The deer are all over, including in the neighborhood all winter. It's pretty amazing to watch how adaptable they are, but also, impossible to completely avoid bumping them if you are outside at all. I'm not going to stay inside to avoid impacting wildlife, that's absurd. I am going to be aware of what activities seem to impact them the most and do what I can to minimize my personal impact while still being active outside.

Judge me how you will, at least I'm trying to be aware of my impacts and take note of ways to improve while still living a healthy life outdoors. I'm not perfect, but I'm trying to improve. I noticed my biking is a higher impact activity, which was my point above, so I'm taking steps to avoid the heavier impact times and places for that activity.

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This is consistent with what the studies were showing, each time a hiker or biker came by it caused the animals to move. Bikers making animals move a longer distance AND animals further from the trail moving. Doesn’t seem like a big deal but as more people were going by the animals used more energy while simultaneously not spending that time grazing. Additionally, animals seak out the best graze or browse so if the animal is moved from where it wanted to be it is eating lower quality food. So more energy spent, less energy in, and lower nutrition of the energy coming in.

 

[Sanchez]

I think what's missing from this debate is all the research coming out around trail use impacts on wildlife. I believe some of it has been centered around figuring out what has been causing the elk herds to crash in the San Juans. One of the studies found a pretty large impact from hikers and mountain bikes on wildlife in the area, mountain bikes having a wider impact that hikers per individual user. The biggest issue being the massive increase in the REI outdoorsman types multiplied by the impact.

So, with ebikes, you increase the mileage that a person can cover in a day and thus increasing the overall impact to the wildlife in the area. Some out of shape guy might have only been able to do a couple miles of uphill and will now be doing 10 cause he can now get over the ridgeline.

Also, think about this. If it increases the success rates they will have to drop tag numbers which means even less opportunity. There is pretty consistent complaining on this forum about that one. And if the research is true on impact to wildlife of too many users in the backcountry, you'll have a double whammy from that too as herd numbers fall. Finally, I think people see this as a way to get further than other people. You fail to realize that everyone else will be doing it too and you'll be in the exact same situation you were before except with a lot less sacred places and possibly big wildlife impacts on some thing we supposedly all love.

Great post. Two things happen with expanded use of motorized vehicles including e bikes.

Animlas are more vulnerable to hunters and are negatively impacted by the disturbance. The net effect is reduced hunting opportunity. That is a certainty.

 

[Wib]

Were you able to get any info (license plate on his truck) or pics? Sounds like not. I’d go out of my way and turn him in if possible. I think the only things these idiots understand is pain and money. It’s not legal to administer pain.

No, he went by pretty fast in semi-darkness. By the time I came out at the end of the day no vehicle parked at either gate but mine. I wish it was legal, but I understand why it's not.

 

[mtnbiker208]

I am staying out of this debate, with that said, catching air going uphill on your ebike in turbo modes is fricken fun!

 

[Pikespeak]

I am staying out of this debate, with that said, catching air going uphill on your ebike in turbo modes is fricken fun!

We’ll exactly…most of the mountain bike community views the outdoors as a race track or an amusement park. I imagine 95% would be hard pressed to answer basic questions about any of the ecology around them. I always found it interesting that REI didn’t sell any nature guides for many years along their books on trails, paddling, mountaineering, etc. but they stock what sells and the REI outdoorsman didn’t actually give a crap. They do seem to be stocking some of them in the last year though so maybe that’s changing.

As you are obviously a hunter, I assume you fall into the other 5%. Full disclosure, I own a YETI SB130 but I don’t really relate to the mountain bike crowd.

 

[Wib]

I don't know but I heard Montana is going to replace its "No Motorized" signs on gated roads with "No Mechanized" signs. Meaning not even pedal bikes will be allowed. Not sure if that's just being talked about or is in action already...

 

[bow_dozer]

I agree they have a motor so should only be on motorized trails. I just hope they hear my dirtbike bark through the trees & have enough sense to get off the trail before I mow them over . I guess loud pipes really do save lives?

I get some very nice hand gestures as me and my 300 lope our way up the trail in the dark. To their credit, they have been walking uphill for 2+ hours...

 

[CoStick]

In Denver they are starting a green initiative with vouchers ranging from 300-1200 for e-bikes, $900 for cargo e-bikes. Yes, let’s open up the trails

 

[nphunter]

To me back country doesn’t have a trail so I could really care less. Sure elk use trails but it super easy to get away from them. ID has a great motorized use program that I wish more states would adopt. They have thousands if not hundreds of thousands of miles of single track. Personally i would like to see all motor bikes allowed not just E bikes in a lot of areas. Even the most elite hunters cannot access a lot of our national forests, either they are accessed by air or outfitters with pack teams. I’d like to see those areas more accessible by every day folks instead of just the folks with enough money to fly in or hire an outfitter, opening up some single tracks would make it some common folks could access some of those spots.

I find it funny people walking down a giant trail that is groomed enough for an ebike to use and then stating they don’t want to see more people in the back country. 99% of the places I hunt and kill elk aren’t accessible by any vehicle, you couldn’t even land a chopper in those shit boxes If you don’t want to see people hike up a drainage without a freeway in the bottom of it. I know elk and deer would be less bothered by a couple bikes zipping past than a pile of hippies wearing bells walking up on them.

 

[Pikespeak]

To me back country doesn’t have a trail so I could really care less. Sure elk use trails but it super easy to get away from them. ID has a great motorized use program that I wish more states would adopt. They have thousands if not hundreds of thousands of miles of single track. Personally i would like to see all motor bikes allowed not just E bikes in a lot of areas. Even the most elite hunters cannot access a lot of our national forests, either they are accessed by air or outfitters with pack teams. I’d like to see those areas more accessible by every day folks instead of just the folks with enough money to fly in or hire an outfitter, opening up some single tracks would make it some common folks could access some of those spots.

I find it funny people walking down a giant trail that is groomed enough for an ebike to use and then stating they don’t want to see more people in the back country. 99% of the places I hunt and kill elk aren’t accessible by any vehicle, you couldn’t even land a chopper in those shit boxes If you don’t want to see people hike up a drainage without a freeway in the bottom of it. I know elk and deer would be less bothered by a couple bikes zipping past than a pile of hippies wearing bells walking up on them.

The data says otherwise. The balls already started rolling and it won’t be stopped. Too much money at stake. We’ll reap what we sow.

 

[LandMark1]

Ebikes are cool, will help many people experience what I believe everyone here appreciates, the great outdoors...but IMHO motorized is motorized and if not allowed then so be it. No more special use cases. we have enough.

 

[Wrench]

People are funny. Some want things easy... and some want them hard. They all want the land to themselves.

Longbow guys get less shot opportunity than compound guys in the same season. Pistol guys get less shot opportunity than rifle guys in the same season.

I have a couple guys who hunt the area that I hike my longbow into and they ride up the hill on e bikes that they used to cut the trail open with. They run compounds, rangefinders, radios, gps...they look like digital soldiers.

Nice enough guys. I hate the way they hunt. I pattern bulls and try to kill that bull, they are more like pheasant drivers.

I hunt different than them...but unless they choose the same spot as me they're not much threat to wildlife in September.

It wouldn't be hard for a good lobbiest to make long range hunting a target because of our gadgets being unfair to the animals. The same tactics could be used to show how compound bows can kill from beyond pistol range for most.

Everything we do is a compromise of either skill or effort, unless you're in the Aron Snyder and South Cox crowd.

The only thing two humans from different tribes ever agree on is disagreement.