Future of Muzzleloader hunting

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Wondering your thoughts on ethics with this. People taking shots they shouldn't with open sights and could make with a scope? Is it best to have more wounded critters because people do what they shouldn't. Or allow people to more efficiently harvest more animals?
 
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I BELIEVE THE ORIGINAL CONCEPT OF A MUZZLE LOADER SEASON WAS FOR TRADITIONAL TYPE WEAPONS (AT LEAST WHERE I HUNT) BUT MODERN TECHNOLOGY AND THE MONEY FACTORS HAS INFRINGED UPON THAT. (Both in the weapons manufacturers a driving force in the weapons sales, and states wildlife agencies, extra tags sold) I am a traditional flint lock long rifle deer hunter and that is my choice, I don't look down a long nose at what other hunters use. As to the ethics on shots that's only up to the hunter and their skill set. The same situation came about with bow season over the years. re-curve, compound, cross bow type of thing.
 

Stalker69

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Wondering your thoughts on ethics with this. People taking shots they shouldn't with open sights and could make with a scope? Is it best to have more wounded critters because people do what they shouldn't. Or allow people to more efficiently harvest more animals?
So are you saying people will take shots with open sights at longer ranges, like they would if they had a scope. ( let's just say Iike 200 yards. ) And you don't think those same people if allowed to use a scope are not going to try lets say 300, 400, 500, 600 + yard shots ? Believe me, they will. Some people are going to stretch there opertunities beyond what they are capable of no matter what. So, as far as wounding animals, I am sure it's about the same or worse. Just cause you can see them don't mean you can shoot ( kill) them.
 

CorbLand

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Wondering your thoughts on ethics with this. People taking shots they shouldn't with open sights and could make with a scope? Is it best to have more wounded critters because people do what they shouldn't. Or allow people to more efficiently harvest more animals?
Generally, allowing people to do something just because they will do it anyways is not a great answer.

Ethics is not just giving people every tool possible to make sure that they can quickly kill animals and/or recover those animals.
 

Rich M

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The idea of the iron sights is to limit the range - folks have stretched it to 200-250 yards but beyond that it doesn't work too well.

It is our responsibility as hunters to know the Max Effective Range of ourselves and the equipment we use.

It doesn't take very long to figure it out - go to the range and once you get to a point where you don't hit your target EVERY time, you need to scale it back some until you do. Then you can start screwing around with "field positions" and such. You know the gun is dead nuts at said range and that you can hit every time in the range scenario. Either you can make a clean kill or you can't. It is the best we can do.
 
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OKHunter84
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A good case in point why traditional muzzleloader is important. A unit in a western state that I enjoy hunting that has a restricted muzzleloader season, over a 3 year period recently it had a harvest rate of 19%. During the same time period the rifle harvest rates for that exact same unit were 51%. If all they had was a rifle season then there would have to be way less tags due to the fact that half the guys going would kill rather then less then 20%.
A unit that is adjacent to this unit and has the same terrain had a regular muzzleloader season and it's harvest rate was 41%.
 

Stalker69

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The idea of the iron sights is to limit the range - folks have stretched it to 200-250 yards but beyond that it doesn't work too well.

It is our responsibility as hunters to know the Max Effective Range of ourselves and the equipment we use.

It doesn't take very long to figure it out - go to the range and once you get to a point where you don't hit your target EVERY time, you need to scale it back some until you do. Then you can start screwing around with "field positions" and such. You know the gun is dead nuts at said range and that you can hit every time in the range scenario. Either you can make a clean kill or you can't. It is the best we can do.
Well, it all depends on the target. If your shooting at something the size of a car door, or a chew can. Some people think because they can hit something the size of tractor tire ( their target) at 500 yards, their good to go. I say the size of an orange, at the most, at any yardage. And be able to do it first shot, second and third, repeatedly. Just because the distance increases don't mean the target size should increase. An animals vitals remain the same size, regardless how close or how far away they are.
 

Rich M

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Well, it all depends on the target. If your shooting at something the size of a car door, or a chew can. Some people think because they can hit something the size of tractor tire ( their target) at 500 yards, their good to go. I say the size of an orange, at the most, at any yardage. And be able to do it first shot, second and third, repeatedly. Just because the distance increases don't mean the target size should increase. An animals vitals remain the same size, regardless how close or how far away they are.
pretty much. my thought/action is if you can't definitively hit it on the range you have no excuse for shooting at any animal at that distance. Of course, your target size will vary based on what you hunt - squirrels to bison.
 

Stalker69

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pretty much. my thought/action is if you can't definitively hit it on the range you have no excuse for shooting at any animal at that distance. Of course, your target size will vary based on what you hunt - squirrels to bison.
Yea size of animal will vary, but does that give you any reason to not shoot the same size (group) as you would on a smaller animal. Again I say orange size group, repeatability, no matter the yardage, why drop your standereds,for any big game animal.
 
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Rich M

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Yea size of animal will vary, but does that give you any reason to not shoot the same size (group) as you would on a smaller animal. Again I say orange size group, repeatability, no matter the yardage, why drop your standereds,for any big game animal.
I never gave a group size. Said MER for you and your weapon.

Have to be happy with our own shooting and imo, know your shot is gonna be a kill shot. If you aren't sure, you shouldn't be shooting.
 

Rich M

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I personally don't care what direction the technology takes, and I have no problem with the use of modern muzzle fed firearms. But what I'd like to see is a return to a primitive only muzzleloader season. Flintlock or sidelock percusion only, wood stocks and no optics. Like the rifles of the forefathers.
There is nothing stopping you from doing that - I'm writing in the nicest possible manner. We can use whatever we want - you can use it during rifle and ML seasons I think.

I haven't hunted ME in 25+ yrs, so been a while since I read the regs.
 
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imo, ml and xguns will self destruct its primitive designation unless they ban scopes on both. i watched a wy. ml mulie hunt yesterday with an inline gunwerks ml. 323 yard shot. sorry, not primitive and s/b in rifle season with worse odds to draw a tag. a scoped Ravin 29 xgun launches 450 grain "bolt" at 450 fps. the ke is 185, not primitive.
 
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Swamp Fox

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Most definitely. Folks talking about ML's being too advanced, maybe it's time to go back to trad archery as well.
Trad archers could get the first two weeks in November, say. Yeah, that's it! Talk about growing big bucks!




Nah,,,, that's not the way it works.
OIP.hW-QhNf_d1SnMLQ8iEAx_wAAAA
 

FLATHEAD

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There is nothing stopping you from doing that - I'm writing in the nicest possible manner. We can use whatever we want - you can use it during rifle and ML seasons I think.

I haven't hunted ME in 25+ yrs, so been a while since I read the regs.
The modern muzzy guys could also use their scoped, long range guns during regular rifle.
Keeping primitive weapons seasons primitive.
I think that was the whole point of primitive weapons season.
Also let me say that an unscoped recurve crossbow is way more primitive than
ANY compound bow. I mean, DeSoto came over with those things.
So I dont buy the whole "cross-gun" mentality some have mentioned.
And BTW, I dont own a crossbow, or even archery hunt at all.
 

Fire power

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Cva optima. Cheap and shoot well.

Get a burris fullfield ii with the bdc reticle and it lined up perfect for mine out to 300 yards.
 
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OKHunter84
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The guys saying "if you want to shoot flintlock nothing is stopping you, I'll shoot how I want" aren't really understanding what's happening. The guns have advanced past what they were when the rules were written and states will catch up. It's only a matter of time. NM just went open sights only, CO and Idaho already were. For some reason Midwest states where it's mainly whitetail don't seem to care with archery or muzzleloader advancements because whitetail populations are thriving in most places. Opportunity and animal populations are on the decline in the west with winter kill, predators being reintroduced and a lot more hunters. They'll either reduce tags or attempt to reduce harvest rates.
 

Stalker69

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The modern muzzy guys could also use their scoped, long range guns during regular rifle.
Keeping primitive weapons seasons primitive.
I think that was the whole point of primitive weapons season.
Also let me say that an unscoped recurve crossbow is way more primitive than
ANY compound bow. I mean, DeSoto came over with those things.
So I dont buy the whole "cross-gun" mentality some have mentioned.
And BTW, I dont own a crossbow, or even archery hunt at all.
Well I can tell you there's a huge advantage to cross bows. My buddy had shoulder surgery and couldn't shoot his long bow or compound. So he bought a cross bow. And within a half a dozen shots, he was shooting better then he ever does with his bows. And at 60 yards was shooting better then he does at 20 yards with his bows. He bought one of those, recurve cross nows, that the add used to show the guy beating the he'll out of it. I think he said the guy even drove over it. But wasn't one of these compound modern cross bows, I could only imagine how much easier they would be.
 

FLATHEAD

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Well I can tell you there's a huge advantage to cross bows. My buddy had shoulder surgery and couldn't shoot his long bow or compound. So he bought a cross bow. And within a half a dozen shots, he was shooting better then he ever does with his bows. And at 60 yards was shooting better then he does at 20 yards with his bows. He bought one of those, recurve cross nows, that the add used to show the guy beating the he'll out of it. I think he said the guy even drove over it. But wasn't one of these compound modern cross bows, I could only imagine how much easier they would be.
If I ever archery hunted again, it would be with a recurve crossbow.
 
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