Future of Muzzleloader hunting

[Swamp Fox]

The guys saying "if you want to shoot flintlock nothing is stopping you, I'll shoot how I want" aren't really understanding what's happening. The guns have advanced past what they were when the rules were written and states will catch up. It's only a matter of time. NM just went open sights only, CO and Idaho already were. For some reason Midwest states where it's mainly whitetail don't seem to care with archery or muzzleloader advancements because whitetail populations are thriving in most places. Opportunity and animal populations are on the decline in the west with winter kill, predators being reintroduced and a lot more hunters. They'll either reduce tags or attempt to reduce harvest rates.

You Western knuckleheads ought to count your blessings. LOL ... The alternative east of you seems to be to nickel and dime nimrods for every conceivable license type a "method" hunter can dream up.

I don't have the problem in my slice of Dixie (yet) but Virginia, say, has prolly lost my business for good. She has a toll for up, down and sideways.

Around here, any "handicapped" hunting method for deer is going to take a back seat to a more efficient killing method. It's why the "archery" seasons in the Carolinas are a joke now, and why what we used to call "blackpowder" is a season completely unrecognizable from what it was even in the 1980s.

I have a plan to reform things but I doubt the government will go for it ...LOL

 

[Rich M]

The guys saying "if you want to shoot flintlock nothing is stopping you, I'll shoot how I want" aren't really understanding what's happening. The guns have advanced past what they were when the rules were written and states will catch up. It's only a matter of time. NM just went open sights only, CO and Idaho already were. For some reason Midwest states where it's mainly whitetail don't seem to care with archery or muzzleloader advancements because whitetail populations are thriving in most places. Opportunity and animal populations are on the decline in the west with winter kill, predators being reintroduced and a lot more hunters. They'll either reduce tags or attempt to reduce harvest rates.

Maybe you don’t see where things are going.

Archery and rifle are much more popoular, ML has a short season, are a pita to use, misfire, short ranges, etc.

The reason they allow this other stuff (other than flintlocks) is to keep the interest. I ML hunted w dad for a few years til we stopped. Didn’t ML hunt
again until a couple years back and last year. It’s hardly worth it for 3 or 7 days. Some folks do enjoy it, that’s good.

I also dont get excited over archery either. Do it cause i have to.

 

[Swamp Fox]

Maybe you don’t see where things are going.

Archery and rifle are much more popoular, ML has a short season, are a pita to use, misfire, short ranges, etc.

The reason they allow this other stuff (other than flintlocks) is to keep the interest. I ML hunted w dad for a few years til we stopped. Didn’t ML hunt
again until a couple years back and last year. It’s hardly worth it for 3 or 7 days. Some folks do enjoy it, that’s good.

I also dont get excited over archery either. Do it cause i have to.

Not sure what planet you're on, but Florida rings a bell.

ML blows bow season out of the water in terms of hunter participation.

I'm sorry you feel forced into archery.

Modern ML is very effective, semi-goof-proof and a lot easier than "blackpower" used to be, especially if you were averse to a plunger and a bucket of suds at the end of each evening.

Everybody and his brother-in-law is willing to put in the minimized effort to hunt "muzzleloader" now.

It's not about "keeping up the interest" or promoting traditions.

The state wants to manage game populations and hunter behavior.

 

[OKHunter84]

Maybe you don’t see where things are going.

Archery and rifle are much more popoular, ML has a short season, are a pita to use, misfire, short ranges, etc.

The reason they allow this other stuff (other than flintlocks) is to keep the interest. I ML hunted w dad for a few years til we stopped. Didn’t ML hunt
again until a couple years back and last year. It’s hardly worth it for 3 or 7 days. Some folks do enjoy it, that’s good.

I also dont get excited over archery either. Do it cause i have to.

Modern inline muzzleloaders almost never misfire and their ranges are much further. I don't even have the most advanced and I have killed a deer at 256 yards. 50 or 60 yards with a bow is a heck of a poke. Fast twist rate, smokeless powder, reliable inline ignition has a lot of these guys able to shoot 500 yards with their ML. That's what I was talking about. It's pretty anecdotal to say, "I don't use a muzzleloader much so archery and rifle is more popular."

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Not sure what planet you're on, but Florida rings a bell.

ML blows bow season out of the water in terms of hunter participation.

I'm sorry you feel forced into archery.

Modern ML is very effective, semi-goof-proof and a lot easier than "blackpower" used to be, especially if you were averse to a plunger and a bucket of suds at the end of each evening.

Everybody and his brother-in-law is willing to put in the minimized effort to hunt "muzzleloader" now.

It's not about "keeping up the interest" or promoting traditions.

The state wants to manage game populations and hunter behavior.

I wouldn't say muzzleloader season participation blows bow season participation out of the water across the board in the west. It's the opposite in Washington (allows inline, closed breech, iron sights, sabots)

2022 Deer
Archery Tags Purchased = 18,455
ML Tags Purchased = 7,384

2022 Elk
Archery Tags Purchased = 19,514
ML Tags Purchased = 14,414

(honestly expected those ratios to be flipped deer vs elk...the elk unit I hunt is 3:1 archery vs ML)

 

[Swamp Fox]

Okay ... Tha

I wouldn't say muzzleloader season participation blows bow season participation out of the water across the board in the west. It's the opposite in Washington (allows inline, closed breech, iron sights, sabots)

2022 Deer
Archery Tags Purchased = 18,455
ML Tags Purchased = 7,384

2022 Elk
Archery Tags Purchased = 19,514
ML Tags Purchased = 14,414

(honestly expected those ratios to be flipped deer vs elk...the elk unit I hunt is 3:1 archery vs ML)

Okay ... Thanks for that ... What is wrong with y'all .... LOL ... I'm in the East... Possess a killer in-line, prefer my side-lock except for the cleaning ... Find archery much simpler ... Yeah right ... LOL

But, I mean, like , who really nos all this stuff anyway? .....

It's all good.

 

[Rich M]

Not sure what planet you're on, but Florida rings a bell.

ML blows bow season out of the water in terms of hunter participation.

I'm sorry you feel forced into archery.

Modern ML is very effective, semi-goof-proof and a lot easier than "blackpower" used to be, especially if you were averse to a plunger and a bucket of suds at the end of each evening.

Everybody and his brother-in-law is willing to put in the minimized effort to hunt "muzzleloader" now.

It's not about "keeping up the interest" or promoting traditions.

The state wants to manage game populations and hunter behavior.

I'm deaf and deer spook when deaf guys make noise. Archery means deer are very close and I have little chance to get a shot off when the deer doesn't jump the string.

Started ML in about 1978 - had the various issues with the caps and loss of shot opps - we did get 209 primer adapters in the 80's. Was in new England back then - snow and stuff during ML. In FL we get 3-day quota permits and in GA they have a 1 week season. I never hunted ML in GA - wasn't worth the effort, we just came off about a month of me spooking deer and gave me a weekend to check the zero on the rifle before I started the next 3 or 4 weekends of pre-rut and rut hunting.

The way hunting is down here, they call it providing opportunity. They do these 3-day quota hunts and that's what you get, there is "opportunity" and if you get on the deer, you done good. We have a 20-25% success rate for most folks. 1 popular WMA has 9 hunts (3, archery, 3 ML, 3 rifle) for 150 folks per hunt (plus guests) and about 100 deer (bucks & does) get shot. 9x150 = 1350 hunters for 100 kills = 7.5% success rate. Hunting down here can be tough.

 

[ElGuapo]

Personally, I wish they would do away with muzzleloader-specific seasons. Our MT politicians passed a bill 2 years ago and made a muzzleloader season that starts about 2 weeks after our 5 week general season… after our 6 week archery season… before and after our shoulder seasons.

I get it, provide opportunities for different user groups. What’s next? A spear season? A Chinese throwing star season? Nunchucks? How about a left handed 6.5 Creedmoor only season?

As it applies to Montana, you guys definitely don’t need longer seasons, I agree… This doesn’t apply outside of Montana, or Wyoming IMO

 

[Rich M]

Modern inline muzzleloaders almost never misfire and their ranges are much further. I don't even have the most advanced and I have killed a deer at 256 yards. 50 or 60 yards with a bow is a heck of a poke. Fast twist rate, smokeless powder, reliable inline ignition has a lot of these guys able to shoot 500 yards with their ML. That's what I was talking about. It's pretty anecdotal to say, "I don't use a muzzleloader much so archery and rifle is more popular."

I too am surprised about the numbers posted above. I'm in a small circle - maybe 30 hunters in 6 or 7 states. Of the 30, only 3 or 4 hunt w ML - sometimes it has to do with hunting permits but few intentionally seek a ML permit, it is like me and the archery - you go cause you gotta or you stay home and do chores.

I have Optima, can use a scope and 209 primers, shoot as far as I'm able (200-250 yds +/-, last year's buck was about 40 yds), but go to CO or other limited ML states with iron sights and no 209 primer ignition (I'm sure the caps have come a long ways in the past 40 years since I last used em, but they aren't as sure fire as a 209 primer). I had gotten the Optima for hunting WY and said no thanks after the bs or last year. Thankfully, it still functions for the 3 day hunts down here.

Guess we can say it is regional and species specific?

 

[OKHunter84]

I too am surprised about the numbers posted above. I'm in a small circle - maybe 30 hunters in 6 or 7 states. Of the 30, only 3 or 4 hunt w ML - sometimes it has to do with hunting permits but few intentionally seek a ML permit, it is like me and the archery - you go cause you gotta or you stay home and do chores.

I have Optima, can use a scope and 209 primers, shoot as far as I'm able (200-250 yds +/-, last year's buck was about 40 yds), but go to CO or other limited ML states with iron sights and no 209 primer ignition (I'm sure the caps have come a long ways in the past 40 years since I last used em, but they aren't as sure fire as a 209 primer). I had gotten the Optima for hunting WY and said no thanks after the bs or last year. Thankfully, it still functions for the 3 day hunts down here.

Guess we can say it is regional and species specific?

I think you are correct. It definitely is regional and species specific. I'm sure states that are open sights only will have less participation

 

[Bluefish]

Iowa have about 90k bow tags vs 11k ml tags. They limit ml so those numbers are distorted by the regulations Vs being able to choose one or the other. Early ml sells out every year. I would like to hunt early ml, but you only get one any sex gun tag. I think I have a better chance during gun season, so I only hunt late ml with doe tags. Even then I often use a pistol instead as it’s a legal method of take.

 

[FLATHEAD]

I'll vouch for the tough hunting in Florida, esp. outside the panhandle.
So tough it borders on "why even bother".

 

[Swamp Fox]

I'll vouch for the tough hunting in Florida, esp. outside the panhandle.
So tough it borders on "why even bother".

Plus it is a long, boring state to drive through... I went to see some black swamp panthers in cages at every other roadside attraction and instead missed my exit on 10 and wound up in Albequerque.

 

[Dos Perros]

I gotta say, that if you want your ML laws to read x,y,z. Then just do it.

Put on your buckskins and prime your flintlock. Go have fun. Stop worrying about other folks. That’s where you are going wrong, it robs yer joy for no reason. Do it the way you want within the law and have fun.

I think the point the others are making is that if other muzzleloaders are so much more effective, then logically fish and game must limit opportunity, and therefore dudes won't get the opportunity to don their buckskins. That is a valid gripe.

 

[ENCORE]

................. and therefore dudes won't get the opportunity to don their buckskins...................

It must be difficult for those who want to "dress up" to be something that they're not. Seems that there's a bunch of that going around...................

 

[Dos Perros]

It must be difficult for those who want to "dress up" to be something that they're not. Seems that there's a bunch of that going around...................

You mean like precision rifles calling themselves “muzzleloaders?”

 

[ENCORE]

You mean like precision rifles calling themselves “muzzleloaders?”

Loads from the muzzle............

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

It must be difficult for those who want to "dress up" to be something that they're not. Seems that there's a bunch of that going around...................

I'd rather have people identify as a 19th century market hunter than a furry

 

[Rich M]

I think the point the others are making is that if other muzzleloaders are so much more effective, then logically fish and game must limit opportunity, and therefore dudes won't get the opportunity to don their buckskins. That is a valid gripe.

Some folks like to look for issues to worry about. Have any states reduced ML tags due to the new MLs? Same for rifle tags due to the long range light recoil stuff we have now? If not, then where does the worry come from?

I really don't care what folks use - just go hunt, have fun.
What we're seeing these times are people not having fun - they are worrying about their hoard of hunting - and it takes time & energy and makes them feel tense & cranky...

If it is that important to someone - get off their duff and do what is necessary to start the legislative process to limit ML hunting to roundball muskets and get ready for the other hunters (and manufacturers) to get really nasty to them. We'll find out about the ratio of guys with round ball muskets vs in-lines vs LR MLs real quick.

This is all part of population growth and the future collapse of hunting - little by little folks lose tolerance and turn on each other. Hunters aren't really gregarious and when their little circles get compromised, they lash out. Notice the R vs NR stuff going on - it was fine until folks started getting crowded and the 1 hunting spot they knew was overrun with folks and not game - they went home empty handed and pissed. They forgot to read the book, "who moved my cheese". The book says that only people expect stuff to always be as it was and people will die over their habits - the proper thing is to have several sources of "cheese" and to continually seek out new sources. It's a big business management book in a small wrapper.

Then we have the Luddites. They are folks who resist technology and change. Their claim to fame was destroying cotton mills instead of learning how to master them. Anyway - they'd rather we still had hand looms - round balls - whatever. The Luddites lost out big time.

Here I am rambling - sorry about that.

 

[Dos Perros]

Have any states reduced ML tags due to the new MLs? Same for rifle tags due to the long range light recoil stuff we have now?

I think the answer is very likely 'yes,' although I'll admit it's tough to prove. When animals don't show up on the winter range it's tough to know what killed them. I have seen plenty complaints on Rokslide around lack or mandatory harvest reporting. Is the absence of data proof of absence of a condition? I think not.