First Wolf Kill of Livestock in Colorado

[Newtosavage]

Or mismanage them. How is Washington and Oregon doing with wolf management? The term management varies greatly with the politics of each state. Look up Washington wolf plan and tell me how are they managing wolves? They need more wolves and so called breeding pairs than wy, Mt, id combined before they can even think about hunter management of wolves. I can see this exact scenario play out in Colorado with the abundance of what I would call greenies moving in or already there.

I'm quite certain the answer to that question depends entirely on who you ask.

 

[Trap]

Here you go -

https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Hunting/BigGame/Colorado_Big_Game_Population_Status_and_Management_Summary2_2020.pdf

3. CPW has intentionally reduced elk populations to achieve population objectives set for each herd. Currently, 22 of 42 (52%) elk herds are still above their current population objective ranges (Table 2).

This information isn't hard to find but it won't change the minds of any individual who his hell bent on blaming wolves for everything under the sun.

What? Post up those units populations that have wolves introduced 5-10 years AFTER wolves are reintroduced. Nice job on your Google fu but your facts are a little early. If they want to reduce population wouldn’t it make sense to sell more elk tags and create revenue to fund future elk habitat and elk management? I think that’s called the North American wildlife model it’s kinda been working . No let wolves eat them

 

[Trap]

I'm quite certain the answer to that question depends entirely on who you ask.

200 percent agree with you. Ask the long time elk hunters in those states that hunt where wolves ARE present in larger numbers. I assume most on this forum are hunters who care about future deer and elk numbers

 

[Trap]

I'm always curious about the motivation of anti-wolf hunters. On the surface it sure seems like folks who so vocally opposed to wolves are simply worried about not having enough critters to shoot. Is that it? If having wolves in the landscape was actually better for the ecosystem (not saying it is, but if it is) would everyone here still feel the same way or would we all still hate wolves because they compete with us for game? Are we really that selfish? I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out when I see so many hunters spew hate about wolves thread after thread after thread...

Or is it the ranchers we're worried about? You know, the same ones who lock us out of our public lands. A person really needs a scorecard to keep up with the logic here.

I’m a pro wolf hunter Idaho is going to be fine as we have been allowed to manage them. I have enjoyed (kinda with limited success lol) hunting wolves and trapping. The main concern I have is mismanagement of wolves and the destruction of the North American wildlife model which has been a huge success forever. Our model of wildlife management has brought species from the brink of extinction to abundance. It requires excess mainly ungulates to sell tags to create revenue to fund future management and habitat for deer and elk. We already have deer and elk facing less habitat and more hunting demand every year. Given that the funds to help manage and improve the herds depends on tag sales and those tags have to have a surplus population does it make sense to drop an apex predator in the middle of that? I believe anti hunters are pushing an abundance of predators to break the North American wildlife model. You can’t have an abundance of predators AND a surplus of deer and elk to sell tags to create the money to help sustain the herds. Selfishly I’m for wolf hunting and I have enjoyed having another species to pursue. Unselfishly I wish they would have never let the wolves out of the bag because I have seen the devastation they created in certain areas of Idaho. Our wilderness areas will never be the same for elk hunting. When Colorado allows ballot box biology to reintroduce wolves when they are already present does not make me think they will be able to manage them well. I don’t hunt in Colorado but maybe my grandkids or great grandkids will? I would rather they have the same opportunities I have which require the North American wildlife model to still be functioning. You can’t have abundant predators and excess deer and elk

 

[Trap]

What exactly is the "threat" you refer

If the wolves in fact are close to town dead pet dogs is a very real threat. I have number of freinds hunting hounds killed by wolves and a ranch freinds dogs killed literally in the yard. According to buzz logic the wolves killing domestic dogs would reduce cattle depredations? since nowhere in the west with wolves do domestic dogs kill more cattle than wolves

 

[Newtosavage]

I’m a pro wolf hunter Idaho is going to be fine as we have been allowed to manage them. I have enjoyed (kinda with limited success lol) hunting wolves and trapping. The main concern I have is mismanagement of wolves and the destruction of the North American wildlife model which has been a huge success forever. Our model of wildlife management has brought species from the brink of extinction to abundance. It requires excess mainly ungulates to sell tags to create revenue to fund future management and habitat for deer and elk. We already have deer and elk facing less habitat and more hunting demand every year. Given that the funds to help manage and improve the herds depends on tag sales and those tags have to have a surplus population does it make sense to drop an apex predator in the middle of that? I believe anti hunters are pushing an abundance of predators to break the North American wildlife model. You can’t have an abundance of predators AND a surplus of deer and elk to sell tags to create the money to help sustain the herds. Selfishly I’m for wolf hunting and I have enjoyed having another species to pursue. Unselfishly I wish they would have never let the wolves out of the bag because I have seen the devastation they created in certain areas of Idaho. Our wilderness areas will never be the same for elk hunting. When Colorado allows ballot box biology to reintroduce wolves when they are already present does not make me think they will be able to manage them well. I don’t hunt in Colorado but maybe my grandkids or great grandkids will? I would rather they have the same opportunities I have which require the North American wildlife model to still be functioning. You can’t have abundant predators and excess deer and elk

Some of you guys give liberal nutjobs far too much credit for being that clever.

I'm no more for ballot box biology than I am for biology by politically appointed celebrities and cattle barons.

 

[Trap]

Some of you guys give liberal nutjobs far too much credit for being that clever.

I'm no more for ballot box biology than I am for biology by politically appointed celebrities and cattle barons.

I’m glad we agree on the ballot box biology I thought we did. It’s not necessarily giving credit to your average liberal nut job but more about breaking the nawm of game management. Regardless of if pro Wolfers are aware they are breaking that system doesn’t matter reintroduction and potential mis management WILL break the system. With all the challenges facing western deer and elk is dropping an apex predator in the middle of the problem smart? That’s why I am pro wolf hunting and anti reintroduced wolves. Selfishly it’s been cool to see, hear , hunt and harvest wolves. Unselfishly it’s been sad to see former great herds pretty much devastated. One major unintended consequence of wolves in Idaho has been pushing herds out of the high country (avoiding wolves) on onto lowland private. Some of the easiest elk I have harvested have been post wolves since they were practically in town. Fish and game answer has been more depredation tags on private and late cow elk seasons on private. It’s a bad catch 22 for the elk. I would love to have been in Idaho 200 years ago where predators and prey were naturally balanced. That ship sailed 200 million people ago in terms of us population. There is a major imbalance in nature but we have been able to use the nawm model to manage mainly deer and elk for a surplus to create tags to create revenue to better manage for a future surplus it’s a big circle that unmanaged wolves will break. I don’t think the average liberal nut job that voted for wolf reintroduction even know the North American wildlife model exists let alone understand it and realize they are voting to destroy it. They are voting for it because it makes them FEEL good. They will likely never see or encounter a wolf but are voting for wolves because of their feelers. The leaders of major enviro anti hunting groups absolutely understand nawm and understand completely they are pushing things to break it. They just hate hunting period and that’s been proven through their actions for years. They think all hunting in any form is inhumane. Is it a leap to consider all their pro predators propaganda is aimed at breaking the nawm? I am sorry for ranting you asked a good question and seem like a reasonable smart person and I assume a hunter. I’m just trying to give you a good answer. Anybody that had hunted for a longer period of time where there is a large number of wolves will tell you elk will decline dramatically. Areas in Idaho with no or limited wolves are actually above objective. Look at Idaho harvest stats for elk from wolf reintroduction and pre management and after we got management of wolves. Also look at the wilderness and remote areas the elk will never come back in those areas short of government paid hunters and trappers. I’m a pro wolf hunter for selfish and unselfish reasons

 

[Newtosavage]

I’m glad we agree on the ballot box biology I thought we did. It’s not necessarily giving credit to your average liberal nut job but more about breaking the nawm of game management. Regardless of if pro Wolfers are aware they are breaking that system doesn’t matter reintroduction and potential mis management WILL break the system. With all the challenges facing western deer and elk is dropping an apex predator in the middle of the problem smart? That’s why I am pro wolf hunting and anti reintroduced wolves. Selfishly it’s been cool to see, hear , hunt and harvest wolves. Unselfishly it’s been sad to see former great herds pretty much devastated. One major unintended consequence of wolves in Idaho has been pushing herds out of the high country (avoiding wolves) on onto lowland private. Some of the easiest elk I have harvested have been post wolves since they were practically in town. Fish and game answer has been more depredation tags on private and late cow elk seasons on private. It’s a bad catch 22 for the elk. I would love to have been in Idaho 200 years ago where predators and prey were naturally balanced. That ship sailed 200 million people ago in terms of us population. There is a major imbalance in nature but we have been able to use the nawm model to manage mainly deer and elk for a surplus to create tags to create revenue to better manage for a future surplus it’s a big circle that unmanaged wolves will break. I don’t think the average liberal nut job that voted for wolf reintroduction even know the North American wildlife model exists let alone understand it and realize they are voting to destroy it. They are voting for it because it makes them FEEL good. They will likely never see or encounter a wolf but are voting for wolves because of their feelers. The leaders of major enviro anti hunting groups absolutely understand nawm and understand completely they are pushing things to break it. They just hate hunting period and that’s been proven through their actions for years. They think all hunting in any form is inhumane. Is it a leap to consider all their pro predators propaganda is aimed at breaking the nawm? I am sorry for ranting you asked a good question and seem like a reasonable smart person and I assume a hunter. I’m just trying to give you a good answer. Anybody that had hunted for a longer period of time where there is a large number of wolves will tell you elk will decline dramatically. Areas in Idaho with no or limited wolves are actually above objective. Look at Idaho harvest stats for elk from wolf reintroduction and pre management and after we got management of wolves. Also look at the wilderness and remote areas the elk will never come back in those areas short of government paid hunters and trappers. I’m a pro wolf hunter for selfish and unselfish reasons

What do any of us really know about the "former great herds?" You ever read the journals of Lewis and Clark?

You have a narrative running in your head that is not really consistent with what I know. I know plenty of anti and non-hunters who will acknowledge the $ that hunters put into conservation if asked. And I do ask.

 

[Trap]

What do any of us really know about the "former great herds?" You ever read the journals of Lewis and Clark?

You have a narrative running in your head that is not really consistent with what I know. I know plenty of anti and non-hunters who will acknowledge the $ that hunters put into conservation if asked. And I do ask.

Yes on Lewis and Clark my undergrad degree was in history with an emphasis on Montana history. I know anti and non hunters who acknowledge hunters money in regards to conservation also. My point is very few understand the nawm and how it works. I would guess very few if any understand we need surplus deer and elk to make it work. That’s why the balance of nature argument is so persuasive to them on voting in regard to wolves and other predators. They probably also don’t understand the ancillary wildlife (non game) that benefits from those dollars and the habitat they go towards. But maybe they do see the benefits to other wildlife but most seem to think hunters only want to preserve what they can kill. For most hunters nothing could be farther from the truth. I agree lots of non hunters realize hunters money go to conservation very few if any understand the nawm and how it works. Hence there voting record

 

[tcpip95]

Here you go -

https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Hunting/BigGame/Colorado_Big_Game_Population_Status_and_Management_Summary2_2020.pdf

3. CPW has intentionally reduced elk populations to achieve population objectives set for each herd. Currently, 22 of 42 (52%) elk herds are still above their current population objective ranges (Table 2).

This information isn't hard to find but it won't change the minds of any individual who his hell bent on blaming wolves for everything under the sun.

OK, so why wouldn't they allow more elk hunting tags instead of adding wolves? What if the wolves are hugely successful in killing elk - so much to the point that they end up tipping the scales in the other direction? You can't control wolf kills, but you can control hunting tags. I'm not seeing the advantage of wolves over additional tags.

 

[Newtosavage]

Yes on Lewis and Clark my undergrad degree was in history with an emphasis on Montana history. I know anti and non hunters who acknowledge hunters money in regards to conservation also. My point is very few understand the nawm and how it works. I would guess very few if any understand we need surplus deer and elk to make it work. That’s why the balance of nature argument is so persuasive to them on voting in regard to wolves and other predators. They probably also don’t understand the ancillary wildlife (non game) that benefits from those dollars and the habitat they go towards. But maybe they do see the benefits to other wildlife but most seem to think hunters only want to preserve what they can kill. For most hunters nothing could be farther from the truth. I agree lots of non hunters realize hunters money go to conservation very few if any understand the nawm and how it works. Hence there voting record

"surplus" is subjective

 

[Newtosavage]

OK, so why wouldn't they allow more elk hunting tags instead of adding wolves? What if the wolves are hugely successful in killing elk - so much to the point that they end up tipping the scales in the other direction? You can't control wolf kills, but you can control hunting tags. I'm not seeing the advantage of wolves over additional tags.

They have unlimited tags in some of the most overpopulated units - many of which go unused. What else are they supposed to do?

Recreational hunting is a piss poor method for population control btw. Any wildlife professional knows this.

 

[RMM]

They have unlimited tags in some of the most overpopulated units - many of which go unused. What else are they supposed to do?

Recreational hunting is a piss poor method for population control btw. Any wildlife professional knows this.

Genuinely asking, is that because the units are mostly private land or inaccessible public?

 

[Newtosavage]

Genuinely asking, is that because the units are mostly private land or inaccessible public?

Inaccessible? I'm not sure what that means but I'm thinking of the units around the flattops where they have 5k tags and there is plenty of public.

 

[RMM]

Inaccessible? I'm not sure what that means but I'm thinking of the units around the flattops where they have 5k tags and there is plenty of public.

Inaccessible as in landlocked by private or only able to get back in to by horseback

 

[cnelk]

The wolves that killed the cow are in GMU 6. The ranch is NE of Walden.

Far, far away from the Flattops.

 

[Newtosavage]

Inaccessible as in landlocked by private or only able to get back in to by horseback

Ya, not really the case in the units that have 5k tags

 

[Newtosavage]

The wolves that killed the cow are in GMU 6. The ranch is NE of Walden.

Far, far away from the Flattops.

60 mi. as the crow flies.

 

[bayoublaster7527]

I'm always curious about the motivation of anti-wolf hunters. On the surface it sure seems like folks who so vocally opposed to wolves are simply worried about not having enough critters to shoot. Is that it? If having wolves in the landscape was actually better for the ecosystem (not saying it is, but if it is) would everyone here still feel the same way or would we all still hate wolves because they compete with us for game? Are we really that selfish? I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out when I see so many hunters spew hate about wolves thread after thread after thread...

Or is it the ranchers we're worried about? You know, the same ones who lock us out of our public lands. A person really needs a scorecard to keep up with the logic here.

Could it be that anti-wolf hunters are honest enough to realize reintroduction isn’t necessary when CPW has already verified wolves in Colorado and the most prudent measure would be for them to naturally expand and establish themselves in the ecosystem where the habitat can support? Those same hunters probably are not swayed by the multi million dollar out of state activist disinformation campaigns that swayed 50.9% of Colorado voters.

 

[cnelk]

Still wondering what the Flattops have to do with this