First Wolf Kill of Livestock in Colorado

[Newtosavage]

You have to remember our forefathers we’re rather ruthless and thought nothing of throwing out out poison for the vermin. There were bounties in place on them many times throughout early history also.
You have to understand that the wolf is the #1 tool used by anti hunters to end hunting by taking the need of hunters out of the “management” aspect of wildlife management.

I think that's the rumor among western hunters anyway.

I also know there are a lot of people who are interested in ecosystem health who frankly don't even think about recreational hunters, or at least not nearly as much as the hunters give them credit for.

For a lot of people, hunters are an afterthought.

 

[Chucklehead]

No barstools involved Buzz. You can call it data collection if you want.

Here’s one study: My neighbor has had cattle for generations and a grazing permit in the hills above the Bitterroot valley. There have been dogs, lions, grizzly bears, and people around for centuries. Everything was fine. Then came the wolves. The number of stragglers that were never seen went up and up until the loss of money made grazing not worth it. If you want to call those facts armchair feel free.

Same story for ranchers down in the Bighole. Cattle and sheep slaughtered every night. FWP gave them shoot on sight permits. But it did nothing. The wolves went strictly nocturnal. Besides would you want to spend all day every day sitting there with a gun watching your livestock?

There have been horses gutted by wolves right down in the residential areas. It makes the local news so does that mean it’s not armchair BS?

Do you really believe government studies? The numbers they list for populations aren’t even accurate. I remember when we were at a point where they told us there were 12 wolves in and around the Bitterroot. Meanwhile we’d see 4 packs of 6-8 in totally different areas miles away from each other. Hell we’d kill 3 and the number wouldn’t change! Lol

This forum has more valid information than a government study.

Being in ag my whole life the first thing I thought: anyone who knows day to day operations of a working ranch in wolf territory knows what the reality is. A stray dog jacking someone's $10 dollar hobby chicken isn't exactly the same as a lion or pack of wolves taking down a $1000 dollar plus steer.

Here is what I found in 15 mins of research. (from 2010 USDA reports) Dogs do not kill more cattle than wolves when in wolf country. (ID, WY, WI, MN, MT.) Coyotes are by far the biggest nationwide.



https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ou...A_Livestock/CT_Protecting_Livestock_Predators

 

[Marble]

I think that's the rumor among western hunters anyway.

I also know there are a lot of people who are interested in ecosystem health who frankly don't even think about recreational hunters, or at least not nearly as much as the hunters give them credit for.

For a lot of people, hunters are an afterthought.

With all due respect, I think it is rather naive to not beleive the end goal of people supporting wolf reintroduction, no bear hunting and no predator hunting, want there to be no hunting at all. The same groups that support the other restrictions, by in large support the others.

The people that want that will not come out and say it. Oregon has faced laws recently that flat out banned hunting and CA restricts it further regularly, without science to back it up.

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[Trap]

Most policy that was created 100 years ago is due for an update to reflect what we've learned in that time.

Sorry if you don't understand that math.

Clearly you like the status quo. Nothing wrong with that. I don't mind adaptive management informed by good science AND public input because it's their money and their land/resources.

If wolves were so hard to control, tell me how they were extirpated by settlers with a fraction of the technology we have today. They aren't hard to control. Just politically hard to deal with because the mere mention of any predator causes people on both ends to lose their minds and not think clearly.

One word poison. That was the only way they did it. I would never support poisoning since way too many other animals are killed and it would never be approved anyways. Have you hunted or trapped wolves? That is our modern day tools to control wolves. It’s not easy and unless you have done it successfully you shouldn’t be commenting on how easy it is

 

[Trap]

You have to remember our forefathers we’re rather ruthless and thought nothing of throwing out out poison for the vermin. There were bounties in place on them many times throughout early history also.
You have to understand that the wolf is the #1 tool used by anti hunters to end hunting by taking the need of hunters out of the “management” aspect of wildlife management.

the way you folks have described what the wolves do, there is no elk in idaho, montana and wyoming.

I did not realize how far the sky has fallen.
Not anti wolf, or pro wolf, but probably the most neutral guy you will find on this one.
hunting will be tougher, and those who adapt to the new predator in the mix, will still kill elk. The ones that don't adapt will cry on here there is no more elk.

I do have a pack just down the road from me, so not a new animal to me.

We kill elk every year. The realities of wolves and there impacts on elk has nothing to do with if a guys killing elk or not. That’s an often repeated but ignorant statement. If your hunting spot does not have a large presence of wolves it’s no big deal if it does you will understand what people are saying and probably get a new elk hunting spot.

 

[Broomd]

Domestic dogs kill wayyyyy more livestock than wolves....fact.

Keep fluffy on a leash if you're concerned about cattle loss.

Out here that's bullsh t. Angus cows or even our own Highland livestock run/kick the sh t outta domestic dogs. Neighbor called in Sept. and said that our herd had literally run a coyote out of the pasture and onto the road where he almost ran over it.
Wolves? Whole new ballgame. Dogs don't coordinate killing and torturing ungulates like wolves, not even close.
Dogs kill lambs. Wolves kill all forms of livestock with total efficiency.

 

[Trap]

I think that's the rumor among western hunters anyway.

I also know there are a lot of people who are interested in ecosystem health who frankly don't even think about recreational hunters, or at least not nearly as much as the hunters give them credit for.

For a lot of people, hunters are an afterthought.

Not true. There is another thread on here about Washington canceling there spring bear hunt AGAINST the biologist recommendations which were backed up by a boat load of facts. Is that being concerned about ecosystem health or just hating hunting? They eliminated the hunt against all the biological facts that recommended having a season. Just connect the dots it started in California and is sliming it’s way up the coast. First no lion hunting at all in California but they will pay a government guy to tree it with hounds and then the entire lion has to be destroyed. That leads to a healthy ecosystem? Then no hounds for lion in Oregon and Washington. Next step no bear baiting in Washington. Next step no spring bear hunting in Washington. They are systematically eliminating hunting starting with the most liberal states first because it’s the easiest target. Ya but they don’t think about recreational hunters at all ya right. An over abundance of predators will end hunting as we know it. Why are they so focused on introducing and protecting predators?? Having too many predators is NOT a healthy ecosystem. I actually prefer predator hunting over deer and elk so I guess it’s kinda working for me lol. This all has nothing to do with a healthy ecosystem

 

[Newtosavage]

With all due respect, I think it is rather naive to not beleive the end goal of people supporting wolf reintroduction, no bear hunting and no predator hunting, want there to be no hunting at all. The same groups that support the other restrictions, by in large support the others.

The people that want that will not come out and say it. Oregon has faced laws recently that flat out banned hunting and CA restricts it further regularly, without science to back it up.

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I think its self serving to think the world revolves around hunters. Honestly man, 80% of people couldn't care less. Don't kid yourself.

 

[Newtosavage]

Not true. There is another thread on here about Washington canceling there spring bear hunt AGAINST the biologist recommendations which were backed up by a boat load of facts. Is that being concerned about ecosystem health or just hating hunting? They eliminated the hunt against all the biological facts that recommended having a season. Just connect the dots it started in California and is sliming it’s way up the coast. First no lion hunting at all in California but they will pay a government guy to tree it with hounds and then the entire lion has to be destroyed. That leads to a healthy ecosystem? Then no hounds for lion in Oregon and Washington. Next step no bear baiting in Washington. Next step no spring bear hunting in Washington. They are systematically eliminating hunting starting with the most liberal states first because it’s the easiest target. Ya but they don’t think about recreational hunters at all ya right. An over abundance of predators will end hunting as we know it. Why are they so focused on introducing and protecting predators?? Having too many predators is NOT a healthy ecosystem. I actually prefer predator hunting over deer and elk so I guess it’s kinda working for me lol. This all has nothing to do with a healthy ecosystem

Okay. You have your narrative and nobody is going to change it. Frankly I don't care enough to argue with you because nothing ever happened because someone won an argument on the internet. Have a great day.

 

[Marble]

I think its self serving to think the world revolves around hunters. Honestly man, 80% of people couldn't care less. Don't kid yourself.

You are missing the point.

And the rest of the world, meaning non hunters, barely contribute to any wilderness/animal type funds compared to what we do historically.

We have everything to lose, they do not.

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[jmez]

Stop with the data Chucklehead. Buzz has the data for 2019 and it's easy to find! Never mind that it wasn't done.

Well except the report he said he has is only done every 5 years. The most recent is 2015. The 2020 data isn't published yet, it will come out sometime next year.

It is much easier to quote some websites, be a condescending jackass, then bully your way around me as the smartest guy in the room.

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[Indian Summer]

I think its self serving to think the world revolves around hunters. Honestly man, 80% of people couldn't care less. Don't kid yourself.

While this may be true there are well organized extremely wealthy groups of people with an army of attorneys who are on a mission 24/7/365 to end hunting. They are funded by those 80% of people you say couldn’t care less because those people have pets and donate to animal cruelty funds which are in reality anti hunting groups.

Those groups have been extremely successful too. Take the case to suspend wolf hunting in Montana for example. Everyone… hunters, ranchers, non hunting locals, biologists, and Mt FWP themselves wanted a management plan that included hunting. By then elk moose and deer that had never seen a wolf before were dropping like flies and so was livestock. More noteworthy is the fact that by then we had something like quadrupled the population of wolves that were originally agreed on in the reintroduction proposal. They kept coming up with new reasons why we shouldn’t hunt wolves. It became “genetic diversity”. The wolves hadn’t yet spread to breed with other packs so they were said to be interbreeding. Really? Who gives a shit there were WAY more than the fn plan called for. Those groups of people paid for all that legal crap and eventually dropped it on the desk of Judge Malloy who, despite massive public comments and recommendations from the state said too bad no hunting.

The struggle is real. We lose more hunting opportunities every day and they will not stop until it’s outlawed. To the point…. wolves and and their sentimental value to animal lovers all over the world became the perfect tool to both generate millions in income for the antis while also replacing human hunters as the means to control big game numbers. Never mind the fact that you can’t tell wolves how many to kill or when to stop and there’s no turning back. They are cancer to the animals and to hunting.

And remember…. those “animal lovers” didn’t care one bit about the elk in Yellowstone being gutted by the thousands. Perfectly healthy herds of elk run to exhaustion in deep snow then killed and left to rot. They turned their heads to those bloody videos. They have no problem sacrificing the lives of literally thousands and thousands of other animals to accomplish their goal. So what does that tell you about their number one priority? Anti hunting!

It’s also to the point where it’s so lucrative that some of the people involved with anti hunting don’t really care about hunting one way or the other. It’s just a good business to get into. Unfortunately it’s not nearly as easy to make money by trying to preserve and promote the hunting heritage. Especially when younger generations are losing interest. It’s a scary and sad downward spiral it really is.

 

[Phaseolus]

Being in ag my whole life the first thing I thought: anyone who knows day to day operations of a working ranch in wolf territory knows what the reality is. A stray dog jacking someone's $10 dollar hobby chicken isn't exactly the same as a lion or pack of wolves taking down a $1000 dollar plus steer.

Here is what I found in 15 mins of research. (from 2010 USDA reports) Dogs do not kill more cattle than wolves when in wolf country. (ID, WY, WI, MN, MT.) Coyotes are by far the biggest nationwide.

View attachment 361127

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ou...A_Livestock/CT_Protecting_Livestock_Predators

I see that 47% of cattle deaths in Colorado are by “other” predators. After coyotes, bears, lion, wolves, and dogs I am wondering what
‘other’ predators are?

 

[Newtosavage]

You are missing the point.

And the rest of the world, meaning non hunters, barely contribute to any wilderness/animal type funds compared to what we do historically.

We have everything to lose, they do not.

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Barely contribute? Who do you think funds all the public lands? Just hunters?

 

[Newtosavage]

While this may be true there are well organized extremely wealthy groups of people with an army of attorneys who are on a mission 24/7/365 to end hunting. They are funded by those 80% of people you say couldn’t care less because those people have pets and donate to animal cruelty funds which are in reality anti hunting groups.

Those groups have been extremely successful too. Take the case to suspend wolf hunting in Montana for example. Everyone… hunters, ranchers, non hunting locals, biologists, and Mt FWP themselves wanted a management plan that included hunting. By then elk moose and deer that had never seen a wolf before were dropping like flies and so was livestock. More noteworthy is the fact that by then we had something like quadrupled the population of wolves that were originally agreed on in the reintroduction proposal. They kept coming up with new reasons why we shouldn’t hunt wolves. It became “genetic diversity”. The wolves hadn’t yet spread to breed with other packs so they were said to be interbreeding. Really? Who gives a shit there were WAY more than the fn plan called for. Those groups of people paid for all that legal crap and eventually dropped it on the desk of Judge Malloy who, despite massive public comments and recommendations from the state said too bad no hunting.

The struggle is real. We lose more hunting opportunities every day and they will not stop until it’s outlawed. To the point…. wolves and and their sentimental value to animal lovers all over the world became the perfect tool to both generate millions in income for the antis while also replacing human hunters as the means to control big game numbers. Never mind the fact that you can’t tell wolves how many to kill or when to stop and there’s no turning back. They are cancer to the animals and to hunting.

And remember…. those “animal lovers” didn’t care one bit about the elk in Yellowstone being gutted by the thousands. Perfectly healthy herds of elk run to exhaustion in deep snow then killed and left to rot. They turned their heads to those bloody videos. They have no problem sacrificing the lives of literally thousands and thousands of other animals to accomplish their goal. So what does that tell you about their number one priority? Anti hunting!

It’s also to the point where it’s so lucrative that some of the people involved with anti hunting don’t really care about hunting one way or the other. It’s just a good business to get into. Unfortunately it’s not nearly as easy to make money by trying to preserve and promote the hunting heritage. Especially when younger generations are losing interest. It’s a scary and sad downward spiral it really is.

meanwhile in reality...

Interior Department Announces Largest Expansion of Fishing and Hunting on U.S. Fish and Wildlife Managed Lands and Waters | U.S. Department of the Interior

The Department of the Interior announced today that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) has opened new or expanded hunting and sport fishing opportunities across 2.1 million acres, the largest expansion of outdoor recreation opportunities in recent history

www.doi.gov

Some of ya'll need to come up for air every now and again.

 

[Crowmangler]

Using predator reintroduction as a method of obtaining desired herd numbers is BS...
A wolf doesn't stop killing when the quota is reached & even if we're allowed to kill them, they will reproduce much faster than they will be removed by hunters.
I realize this is an oversimplification buy why can't the game & fish depts just issue more tags for the units / areas that need herd reductions? I'm sure there's plenty of hunters (residents & NR'S) who would love the opportunity. If the landowners want elk removed, they need to cooperate & allow access.
It's a lot easier to kill an elk eating from an alfalfa field than a wolf roaming the wilderness

 

[Nick Peterson]

Here we go. The tip of the iceberg. Managing them especially with politics based regulations is like trying to get rid of mice in a barn. Good luck Colorado. I feel bad for the elk who have never lived in the presence of such a predator.

First Wolf Kill Of Livestock In Decades Confirmed In Colorado

This is the first time a wolf has killed livestock in 70 years, according to the Colorado Cattlemen's Association.

patch.com

They must be managed! Crazy to think they could be reintroduced without huge consequences

 

[Hoodie]

There is another thread on here about Washington canceling there spring bear hunt AGAINST the biologist recommendations which were backed up by a boat load of facts. Is that being concerned about ecosystem health or just hating hunting? They eliminated the hunt against all the biological facts that recommended having a season.

On this note, for anyone following this thread feel free to visit this link and write the WDFW commissioners directly to express your concerns regarding the discontinuation of spring bear season.

Take Action

Backcountry Hunters & Anglers is the voice for our wild public lands, waters and wildlife.

www.backcountryhunters.org

People writing in was the key factor in preventing the moratorium on bear hunting proposed in California earlier this year.

WDFW estimates around 30,000 bears in Washington (maybe the highest density in the lower 48). Last year, there were a little less than 12,000 applications for spring bear, a little less than 500 tag holders, and 145 bears harvested. WDFW field biologists (obviously) supported the spring season.

 

[Indian Summer]

meanwhile in reality...

Interior Department Announces Largest Expansion of Fishing and Hunting on U.S. Fish and Wildlife Managed Lands and Waters | U.S. Department of the Interior

The Department of the Interior announced today that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) has opened new or expanded hunting and sport fishing opportunities across 2.1 million acres, the largest expansion of outdoor recreation opportunities in recent history

www.doi.gov

Some of ya'll need to come up for air every now and again.

That is meaningless. Access to more places to hunt? We already have a bazillion square miles of national forest. This isn’t about access it’s about the mismanagement of predators and agendas driven by politics and money. What good is a place to hunt if everything is dead and you can’t hunt the animals that killed them? There’s your reality.

Go hunt the Selway or the Bob and let me know about opportunities.

To stay on track here…. are you trying to make a point that the reintroduction of wolves and the way they’ve been managed hasn’t taken away opportunities to view and hunt big game?

 

[Newtosavage]

That is meaningless.

Of course. Doesn't fit the narrative in your head, so therefore it's meaningless.

I'm out. I have no idea why I even engage in these wolf threads anymore. Pure emotion. No rational dialogue. Bye.