Enough gun?

[omicron1792]

I’ve not really seen this new argument you are talking about. I have seen people recommend that kids, recoil sensitive people, and new shooters avoid larger cartridges. I’ve also seen people ask what caliber they should get and seen people respond that smaller calibers will recoil less, be easier to shoot accurately, and be more than adequate to kill game reliably. All of that is true and none of it is saying that larger cartridges are not effective.

I think we all know large calibers are effective. Bullet selection really doesn’t involve caliber in the negative. A 178eldm out of a 308 “should” cause more damage than a 75gr eldm from a 223. The extra “insurance” some talk about could have some validity when comparing apples to apples bullet wise.

I know most don’t do that, but someone that has shot a 308 their whole life and shoots it well could have more room for error shooting is using a great bullet

 

[Macintosh]

I’m a convert but I do have a question.

What argument could someone bring about larger calibers that you would agree with?

It seems that the 223 people have a list, a very short list, of acceptable statements backing up larger caliber use.

1) Any emotion-based argument, ie tradition, I just like it, its what I have, I like the recoil, etc

2) I see what youre saying and I see the evidence, I just cant get my head wrapped around it, ie it just makes me feel better. Old habits die hard.

3) Based on these specific numbers (included ballistic data) for my specific use I believe this specific cartridge to be better suited for wind drift, retained velocity, etc.

4) I prefer to use different bullets than the ones required to optimize smaller cartridges for larger game.

5) dont own the smaller cartridge and dont plan to, I just like big guns.

Im sure theres more. There are tons of variations of valid reasons to use a larger cartridge. Just very few reasons to say its overall functionally better or “more ethical” or passionately argue that its a requirement for a new shooter as their only rifle.

Sure, there are those that will say that a large-enough wound channel to reliably have a safety margin combined with easier shoot-ability for the vast majority of people, is in many cases preferable when the alternative is a slightly larger wound channel (perhaps too big in some cases unless you choose bullets that are designed such that they make a smaller wound) combined with being more difficult to shoot well. That is a valid, data-driven point to make. It also does not negate the fact that the larger calibers work and have done so for a long time, and that in some cases they may offer valid functional benefits at long range or when ammo size or type is a legal requirement. None of this is in question. The question is, when making compromises, which benefits make the most functional difference. Saying “I choose to give up this benefit in favor of this other benefit” and pointing to data to confirm, that has real merit. We can say we’d make different choices, but at that point there’s no disagreement, only different perspectives.

 

[omicron1792]

1) Any emotion-based argument, ie tradition, I just like it, its what I have, I like the recoil, etc

2) I see what youre saying and I see the evidence, I just cant get my head wrapped around it, ie it just makes me feel better. Old habits die hard.

3) Based on these specific numbers (included ballistic data) for my specific use I believe this specific cartridge to be better suited for wind drift, retained velocity, etc.

4) I prefer to use different bullets than the ones required to optimize smaller cartridges for larger game.

5) dont own the smaller cartridge and dont plan to, I just like big guns.

Im sure theres more. There are tons of variations of valid reasons to use a larger cartridge. Just very few reasons to say its overall functionally better or “more ethical” or passionately argue that its a requirement for a new shooter as their only rifle.

Sure, there are those that will say that a large-enough wound channel to reliably have a safety margin combined with easier shoot-ability for the vast majority of people, is in many cases preferable when the alternative is a slightly larger wound channel (perhaps too big in some cases unless you choose bullets that are designed such that they make a smaller wound) combined with being more difficult to shoot well. That is a valid, data-driven point to make. It also does not negate the fact that the larger calibers work and have done so for a long time, and that in some cases they may offer valid functional benefits at long range or when ammo size or type is a legal requirement. None of this is in question. The question is, when making compromises, which benefits make the most functional difference. Saying “I choose to give up this benefit in favor of this other benefit” and pointing to data to confirm, that has real merit. We can say we’d make different choices, but at that point there’s no disagreement, only different perspectives.

Well said. I will say you should be open to other reasons too, just like the new people need to be open to the small caliber reasons. We all can learn something.

 

[Macintosh]

Absolutely. Show me the data, or even some detailed anecdotal experience that gives context and support to your conclusions and we can have a rational conversation about, and Im 150% listening. Tell me you have years of experience and “some things dont change” and dig-in on the same long-debunked tropes, and I’ll sit back and enjoy the memes.

 

[omicron1792]

Absolutely. Show me the data, or even some detailed anecdotal experience that gives context and support to your conclusions and we can have a rational conversation about, and Im 150% listening. Tell me you have years of experience and “some things dont change” and dig-in on the same long-debunked tropes, and I’ll sit back and enjoy the memes.

Yep. Dead on. Personal experience is often the worst and wrong 50% of the time.

“I killed my biggest buck after a full moon.” Means nothing, but that guys is convinced

I’ve pulled the ole AR out of mothballls and used it last year, and have a 223 barrel being made for my Blaser. I believe. I do have a lot of other calibers that I like too. Mainly because I just do. Haha

 

[Macintosh]

Well, I cant say that! Id like a 223 tikka but I mainly hunt with a 30 year old remington pump 3006 carbine, and I mainly use copper bullets for hunting. Pretty much the “anti-rokslide special”. It feels more handy to me than my tikkas, I like the regional tradition, and I prefer the smaller wound channel of the copper ammo, at least when using a cartridge like that.

 

[ElPollo]

Well, I cant say that! Id like a 223 tikka but I mainly hunt with a 30 year old remington pump 3006 carbine, and I mainly use copper bullets for hunting. Pretty much the “anti-rokslide special”. It feels more handy to me than my tikkas, I like the regional tradition, and I prefer the smaller wound channel of the copper ammo, at least when using a cartridge like that.

Your preferences are valid. I understand liking a gun…. Even if it’s a Remington.

As someone who used monos in bigger calibers for years, I’m becoming a big fan of the 223/77 TMK combo. The monos were not great killers for me unless I shot shoulders (which I am fond of eating) or CNS hits. I also was not fond of paying the recoil tax for a smaller wound channel. If I can use something that kicks less, makes a bigger hole, reduces tracking needs, and does all this with cheaper ammo, I’m all in. I just avoid shooting the shoulders.

 

[fwafwow]

Strong Salacious B. Crumb vibes here.

Agreed. But maybe with a bit less depth.

 

[Jason Snyder]

It’s interesting how experiences vary. Monos have been outstanding killers for me over the years, 25 to be exact. Like shoot, watch them take a few steps, then fall over. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I’ve had a few animals do a 50-100 yard death sprint, but the blood trail looked like it was made with a bucket and a roller.

Butchering/trimming is easy peasy. I’ll pay the penalty of using a bigger/higher recoiling cartridge any day in trade.

 

[omicron1792]

Well, I cant say that! Id like a 223 tikka but I mainly hunt with a 30 year old remington pump 3006 carbine, and I mainly use copper bullets for hunting. Pretty much the “anti-rokslide special”. It feels more handy to me than my tikkas, I like the regional tradition, and I prefer the smaller wound channel of the copper ammo, at least when using a cartridge like that.

I have large calibers like 375 and 416 for Africa. I love using them too! I feel ya

 

[TaperPin]

I keep hearing the small caliber fragmenting bullets are taking over all of hunting and everyone who tries one sells everything and buys a Rokslide special.

The 77 TMK has been around almost 10 years, yet nobody I know, or even a friend of a friend hunts with it. I wish a few friends would step up and go hunting with one. I do know a few guys that went through a phase, usually with 25-06 and even respect the old guy that has killed more big elk with his 257 Roberts under 200 yards than I’ll ever see during the seasons, but that’s a long way from 5.56 and 6mm territory.

I hope you guys get the word out a little quicker - the ignorant long range target crowd doesn’t seem to be switching over to the 223 turtle either, or is it tortoise, unless they have to meet a class requirement. I’ll be pissed if after listening to all the high praise only a tiny percent of shooters adopt it, and we don’t have a chance to see one at elk camp.

I also find it funny that many of the small caliber crowd that bang their drums the loudest are going to larger faster rounds - isn’t that overkill? Burning the same amount of powder with similar weight bullets as the 270 seems to be acceptable as long as it’s a 6mm or .257” bullet? The interest in something even larger with a case capacity equaling a belted magnum is even more enjoyable to watch unfold. The Rokslide special is well on its way to morphing into one of the most overbore mini magnums and leaving the little turtle cartridge behind. Or is it tortoise? Lol

I almost feel like we are trapped in an infomercial and Billy Mays has been talking about cleaning stains - that sinking feeling has me thinking the actual performance might not match the hype. Lol

 

[Macintosh]

The glorious part of this is that stuff like that^^ is easily quantified so it becomes an exercise in data comparison for a specific distance requirement, rather than competing opinions. Strongly suspect the “usual suspects” referred to are attempting to apply “lowest recoil possible while
maintaining velocity above 1800fps at impact”, but applying it at ranges in excess of 800 or even 1000 yards. I dont have the skill to utilize that for hunting, but the principle remains the same. Not sure why it would undermine the argument for a little gun though?

 

[omicron1792]

I keep hearing the small caliber fragmenting bullets are taking over all of hunting and everyone who tries one sells everything and buys a Rokslide special.

The 77 TMK has been around almost 10 years, yet nobody I know, or even a friend of a friend hunts with it. I wish a few friends would step up and go hunting with one. I do know a few guys that went through a phase, usually with 25-06 and even respect the old guy that has killed more big elk with his 257 Roberts under 200 yards than I’ll ever see during the seasons, but that’s a long way from 5.56 and 6mm territory.

I hope you guys get the word out a little quicker - the ignorant long range target crowd doesn’t seem to be switching over to the 223 turtle either, or is it tortoise, unless they have to meet a class requirement. I’ll be pissed if after listening to all the high praise only a tiny percent of shooters adopt it, and we don’t have a chance to see one at elk camp.

I also find it funny that many of the small caliber crowd that bang their drums the loudest are going to larger faster rounds - isn’t that overkill? Burning the same amount of powder with similar weight bullets as the 270 seems to be acceptable as long as it’s a 6mm or .257” bullet? The interest in something even larger with a case capacity equaling a belted magnum is even more enjoyable to watch unfold. The Rokslide special is well on its way to morphing into one of the most overbore mini magnums and leaving the little turtle cartridge behind. Or is it tortoise? Lol

I almost feel like we are trapped in an infomercial and Billy Mays has been talking about cleaning stains - that sinking feeling has me thinking the actual performance might not match the hype. Lol


View attachment 720354

This was a high effort troll. Well done.

 

[ElPollo]

This was a high effort troll. Well done.

High effort, but low effect.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

I keep hearing the small caliber fragmenting bullets are taking over all of hunting and everyone who tries one sells everything and buys a Rokslide special.

The 77 TMK has been around almost 10 years, yet nobody I know, or even a friend of a friend hunts with it. I wish a few friends would step up and go hunting with one. I do know a few guys that went through a phase, usually with 25-06 and even respect the old guy that has killed more big elk with his 257 Roberts under 200 yards than I’ll ever see during the seasons, but that’s a long way from 5.56 and 6mm territory.

I hope you guys get the word out a little quicker - the ignorant long range target crowd doesn’t seem to be switching over to the 223 turtle either, or is it tortoise, unless they have to meet a class requirement. I’ll be pissed if after listening to all the high praise only a tiny percent of shooters adopt it, and we don’t have a chance to see one at elk camp.

I also find it funny that many of the small caliber crowd that bang their drums the loudest are going to larger faster rounds - isn’t that overkill? Burning the same amount of powder with similar weight bullets as the 270 seems to be acceptable as long as it’s a 6mm or .257” bullet? The interest in something even larger with a case capacity equaling a belted magnum is even more enjoyable to watch unfold. The Rokslide special is well on its way to morphing into one of the most overbore mini magnums and leaving the little turtle cartridge behind. Or is it tortoise? Lol

I almost feel like we are trapped in an infomercial and Billy Mays has been talking about cleaning stains - that sinking feeling has me thinking the actual performance might not match the hype. Lol


View attachment 720354

If you’re here, who’s pestering the goats on the bridge?!

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Yeah, he clearly ties using more gun than necessary ("insurance") to ethics, which by implication calls into question the ethics of those who don't. All the while providing no justification other than personal anecdotes as to why that is the case.

this right here...

 

[Bluefish]

To the question of does a larger caliber provide more margin of error, if so how? I could believe that using a fragmenting bullet, the wound is bigger and thus you could be a little further off the vitals and still get enough damage to harvest the animal. The down side to do so it the wound is a lot bigger and you damage more meat that’s then unusable.

I think the small caliber proponents make the argument that a large caliber with heavy recoil causes more lost animals as people can’t shoot heavy recoil as accurately and simply miss the vitals.

Which is the correct hypothesis and how do you prove it?

 

[TaperPin]

If you’re here, who’s pestering the goats on the bridge?!

I just need to stake out the local range (and maybe that bridge you mentioned) and find new friends with bolt action 223s.

 

[TaperPin]

This was a high effort troll. Well done.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m on the lookout for a fast twist 22-250 barrel - I just won’t tell my hunting buddies about it. Maybe they already have fast twist 22 creeds and just don’t want to admit it? IDK

 

[roadrunner]

Strong Salacious B. Crumb vibes here.

I don't know what's more disturbing; your post in comparison or the nerdiness that you actually know who that character is...