Enough gun?

[D Lee]

While I suspect I may be getting myself in touble here...

Forums are for posting respectful opinions. If I may - here’s mine. Hope I'm in the right section??

Maybe I have these opinions because I’m older than you and the odds are high I am. Been around a long time. While many have indeed killed more game than I have – I’ve taken my share. The common theme during my range / hunt preparation and all my time afield? Cartridge ballistics. The right cartridge, the right bullet at relatively high speeds. Accuracy – tight groups – always a high priority. The time and work invested in those efforts always paid off at the trigger pull. 95% DRT. A fair estimate.

Cartridges? Way too many to list – all the oldies but goodies and a few new ones – from .222 up to and including .458 Win.

As time passed and rifles came and went, I learned a few things. Like you folks are now. Understandably, things change and Rightfully so. Some things though – don’t.

Over the years, I always chose a cartridge slightly more powerful than needed for the game I was hunting. I called that “insurance.” Margin for error. Maybe I’m wrong – and could be – but 3 times I believe that insurance paid off. Not a DRT but the animal ran maybe 50 +/- yards and fell over.

So, where am I going with all this? Everywhere I look I’m seeing shooters moving to lighter and lighter cartridges for BIG GAME hunting. .223? Not just for 100 lb whitetails or Pronghorns mind you. I’m talking heavy Mule Deer, Black Bear, Elk and Moose. Will the lighter cartridge work? It might. Maybe. For many, it has. If that works for you, I respect that. My question and reason for posting here is: ballistically speaking – putting bullet BC’s aside for a moment – how much insurance is your bullet carrying at 300, 400, 500 and further? REAL terminal ballistics. Foot pounds of energy? For a marginal – less than hoped for bullet placement?

Last I heard – 1,000 ft lbs was a good “minimal” number for deer out yonder. Elk? 1,500 ft lbs – not at the muzzle – but down range at impact.

I’m NOT putting down anyone’s choice of cartridge. I am saying, there are cartridges that meet (& exceed) those numbers, downrange where it really counts. Insurance. We owe that to the game we hunt. It’s called Ethics – said respectfully.

I’m personally down to 4 cartridges. 243 Win for Coyotes and small deer. .270 Win and 30-06 for game up to and including Elk / Moose. 35 Whelen for big Bears. All having one common trait with the right bullet: Insurance.

YMMV. Thanks for reading my post.

Hunt safe.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

Last I heard – 1,000 ft lbs was a good “minimal” number for deer out yonder. Elk? 1,500 ft lbs – not at the muzzle – but down range at impact.

This is fuddlore. It is an anachronism built on institutional inbreeding.

It has been passed down as a rule with zero backing or evidence. It does not take into account bullet construction. It is flawed.

 

[Reburn]

Thank you for your choice to NOT make 223 and 6mm creed ammo harder for me to buy.
Carry on.

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

So, where am I going with all this? Everywhere I look I’m seeing shooters moving to lighter and lighter cartridges for BIG GAME hunting. .223? Not just for 100 lb whitetails or Pronghorns mind you. I’m talking heavy Mule Deer, Black Bear, Elk and Moose. Will the lighter cartridge work? It might. Maybe. For many, it has. If that works for you, I respect that. My question and reason for posting here is: ballistically speaking – putting bullet BC’s aside for a moment – how much insurance is your bullet carrying at 300, 400, 500 and further? REAL terminal ballistics. Foot pounds of energy? For a marginal – less than hoped for bullet placement?

Last I heard – 1,000 ft lbs was a good “minimal” number for deer out yonder. Elk? 1,500 ft lbs – not at the muzzle – but down range at impact.

Well the first problem is considering ft-lbs of energy as a metric for bullet performance.

This from Dr. Fackler seems to be the starting point for most of these discussions. Section 4 in particular.

https://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

From there, the rabbit hole gets deeper. I've been (slowly) working on compiling this literature.

Max Effective Range for Elk: 7-08, 6.5C, and 308

Looking at these three calibers for an elk rifle. What would you say the max effective range is for each?

rokslide.com

Much of this is just a baseline for understanding how projectiles wound, and is primarily focused on military/police weaponry. The base principles still apply to hunting projectiles, but hunting projectiles specifically haven't been tested to the same level.

So threads like the .223, 6mm, 6.5mm are attempting to compile as much "real" data on projectiles in those calibers to help inform other's decisions. They help provide "proof" that the scientific principles from the literature are correct and translate to big game.

 

[TimberHunter]

Here we go…..


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[cmahoney]

Enough gun depends on whether the state you are hunting in has a PP system vs random draw and if you are using a proven scope. There is a meat Eater episode that covers this.


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[Shō[t]gun]

Yay let’s do this again!

 

[Timjohnson11]

If you look around on here you might find one or two (or 10,000) posts addressing this exact same topic..

 

[PNWGATOR]

While I suspect I may be getting myself in touble here...

Forums are for posting respectful opinions. If I may - here’s mine. Hope I'm in the right section??

Maybe I have these opinions because I’m older than you and the odds are high I am. Been around a long time. While many have indeed killed more game than I have – I’ve taken my share. The common theme during my range / hunt preparation and all my time afield? Cartridge ballistics. The right cartridge, the right bullet at relatively high speeds. Accuracy – tight groups – always a high priority. The time and work invested in those efforts always paid off at the trigger pull. 95% DRT. A fair estimate.

Cartridges? Way too many to list – all the oldies but goodies and a few new ones – from .222 up to and including .458 Win.

As time passed and rifles came and went, I learned a few things. Like you folks are now. Understandably, things change and Rightfully so. Some things though – don’t.

Over the years, I always chose a cartridge slightly more powerful than needed for the game I was hunting. I called that “insurance.” Margin for error. Maybe I’m wrong – and could be – but 3 times I believe that insurance paid off. Not a DRT but the animal ran maybe 50 +/- yards and fell over.

So, where am I going with all this? Everywhere I look I’m seeing shooters moving to lighter and lighter cartridges for BIG GAME hunting. .223? Not just for 100 lb whitetails or Pronghorns mind you. I’m talking heavy Mule Deer, Black Bear, Elk and Moose. Will the lighter cartridge work? It might. Maybe. For many, it has. If that works for you, I respect that. My question and reason for posting here is: ballistically speaking – putting bullet BC’s aside for a moment – how much insurance is your bullet carrying at 300, 400, 500 and further? REAL terminal ballistics. Foot pounds of energy? For a marginal – less than hoped for bullet placement?

Last I heard – 1,000 ft lbs was a good “minimal” number for deer out yonder. Elk? 1,500 ft lbs – not at the muzzle – but down range at impact.

I’m NOT putting down anyone’s choice of cartridge. I am saying, there are cartridges that meet (& exceed) those numbers, downrange where it really counts. Insurance. We owe that to the game we hunt. It’s called Ethics – said respectfully.

I’m personally down to 4 cartridges. 243 Win for Coyotes and small deer. .270 Win and 30-06 for game up to and including Elk / Moose. 35 Whelen for big Bears. All having one common trait with the right bullet: Insurance.

YMMV. Thanks for reading my post.

Hunt safe.

Please share your big bear experiences with the 35 Whelen and include pictures!

 

[MuleyFever]

 

[Shō[t]gun]

 

[Billy Goat]

Does 1000 foot pounds look the same in a TTSX, an ELD-M, and a core-loc?


Does 1000 hp get put to the ground the same with 8.5" wide radials as 16" slick?



Foot pounds is a measurement of energy, but it isn't telling you anything about performance. 1000 hp doesn't translate to 1/4 mile time. Sounds cool, but depending on if it's a bike or 12k pound truck, big difference in what it actually does.


This is me trying to be helpful before I fire up the meme machine.

 

[MuleyFever]

 

[chrsclnngr]

Here we go!!

 

[Robobiss]

My “insurance” is shooting something that I enjoy to shoot, and can afford to shoot the living shit out of so I can be proficient as possible. I have a nice -06 as a “big gun”, haven’t shot it in probably 5 years now. No need.

 

[PathFinder]

To be scientifically correct...your 270 and 06 do not make bigger wound channels than your 243. Depending on bullet choice it's just as likely that they make smaller wound channels than the 243.
When you say "big bears," please tell us that doesn't mean black bears...There's nothing big or hard to kill about a black bear.

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[eoperator]

To be scientifically correct...your 270 and 06 do not make bigger wound channels than your 243.

You are wrong . A 3006 with 178eldm will make wound channel substantially larger than a 108eldm from a 243. If you belive otherwise you should invest time and money into ordinance gel as I have to see for yourself.

 

[Article 4]

While I suspect I may be getting myself in touble here...

Forums are for posting respectful opinions. If I may - here’s mine. Hope I'm in the right section??

Maybe I have these opinions because I’m older than you and the odds are high I am. Been around a long time. While many have indeed killed more game than I have – I’ve taken my share. The common theme during my range / hunt preparation and all my time afield? Cartridge ballistics. The right cartridge, the right bullet at relatively high speeds. Accuracy – tight groups – always a high priority. The time and work invested in those efforts always paid off at the trigger pull. 95% DRT. A fair estimate.

Cartridges? Way too many to list – all the oldies but goodies and a few new ones – from .222 up to and including .458 Win.

As time passed and rifles came and went, I learned a few things. Like you folks are now. Understandably, things change and Rightfully so. Some things though – don’t.

Over the years, I always chose a cartridge slightly more powerful than needed for the game I was hunting. I called that “insurance.” Margin for error. Maybe I’m wrong – and could be – but 3 times I believe that insurance paid off. Not a DRT but the animal ran maybe 50 +/- yards and fell over.

So, where am I going with all this? Everywhere I look I’m seeing shooters moving to lighter and lighter cartridges for BIG GAME hunting. .223? Not just for 100 lb whitetails or Pronghorns mind you. I’m talking heavy Mule Deer, Black Bear, Elk and Moose. Will the lighter cartridge work? It might. Maybe. For many, it has. If that works for you, I respect that. My question and reason for posting here is: ballistically speaking – putting bullet BC’s aside for a moment – how much insurance is your bullet carrying at 300, 400, 500 and further? REAL terminal ballistics. Foot pounds of energy? For a marginal – less than hoped for bullet placement?

Last I heard – 1,000 ft lbs was a good “minimal” number for deer out yonder. Elk? 1,500 ft lbs – not at the muzzle – but down range at impact.

I’m NOT putting down anyone’s choice of cartridge. I am saying, there are cartridges that meet (& exceed) those numbers, downrange where it really counts. Insurance. We owe that to the game we hunt. It’s called Ethics – said respectfully.

I’m personally down to 4 cartridges. 243 Win for Coyotes and small deer. .270 Win and 30-06 for game up to and including Elk / Moose. 35 Whelen for big Bears. All having one common trait with the right bullet: Insurance.

YMMV. Thanks for reading my post.

Hunt safe.

There have been multiple threads discussing this very topic. If you want to look up the extensive discussion that took place and make your own decision, might save a lot of back and forth

 

[Wrench]

I was the OP. In my 30's I blew up my right shoulder. I owned nothing but magnums starting with 3's and a few 270s and varmint guns.

I bought a 6.5-06 from Tannel. It was a hammer and weighed 12 pounds. I could shoot it without pain.

I called Sierra for load data and they suggested pushing a 142smk at 2900fps for best accuracy and mentioned it had a lot of kills under it's belt.

The rifle was a hammer with the 142. Deer season came and I took a buck with it. It literally folded where it stood. I wasn't sure how I felt about shooting an elk with it, but I had no other choice. I smoked a bull with it and it too folded at the shot.

I have since killed more elk than the internet will believe with a 28-2900 fps 140 class bullet.

Ive pushed a 100gr tsx through a Roosevelt at 400 measured yards. I've watched a lot of elk die and in my experience the guy with great skill and a bullet that upsets most around 6-8" and will travel at least 12-14" is going to kill stuff.

It may not bleed a lot, but it is dead. Very dead and plenty soon.

 

[Dennis]

Thank you for sharing your experience and your choices.