Elk .243 or 25-06

[Newtosavage]

Here we go...

Yup. circular reasoning will always get someone where they already want to go.

 

[Formidilosus]

Yup. circular reasoning will always get someone where they already want to go.

I asked you a direct question. Will you answer it?


You guys love to talk about theories. I am discussing facts- things that are done repeatedly and consistently, and things that can and are measured. Depending on ones definition of “more effective”, a 233 with the correct bullet can be more effective, or not.

 

[Newtosavage]

I asked you a direct question. Will you answer it?


You guys love to talk about theories. I am discussing facts- things that are done repeatedly and consistently, and things that can and are measured. Depending on ones definition of “more effective”, a 233 with the correct bullet can be more effective, or not.

as I did you.

Are you willing to argue the .223 is more effective on elk than any other cartridge? Unless you are, this conversation is pointless.

 

[Formidilosus]

as I did you.

Are you willing to argue the .223 is more effective on elk than any other cartridge? Unless you are, this conversation is pointless.

Absolutely it can be. Depending on what “more effective” means to you. That’s why my question matters.

450 yards and closer, the 223/77gr TMK has by far the highest shot at to recovery rate on big game animals- including elk. It’s not even close with anything else. The next is 6mm’s.

 

[Newtosavage]

Absolutely it can be. Depending on what “more effective” means to you. That’s why my question matters.

450 yards and closer, the 223/77gr TMK has by far the highest shot at to recovery rate on big game animals- including elk. It’s not even close with anything else. The next is 6mm’s.

Where did you collect your data from and how do you know it's comprehensive?

 

[Formidilosus]

Where did you collect your data from and how do you know it's comprehensive?

What is “comprehensive” to you? These questions matter.


My statements are based on thousands of animals from antelope to moose. Field necropsies and properly conducted terminal ballistics to correlate. There’s a 70+ plus page with tons of info. Every single naysayer that has tried it, no understands that it works.

 

[woods89]

Here's a challenge, for those hesitant.

Get a moderate velocity 6 or 6.5, load it with moderate to heavy for caliber ELD-M, Berger, or Tmk, and go shoot some whitetails. 5 or 10 will suffice. I can't imagine that you aren't going to get a change of perspective. I've seen some horrific damage with my 6.5 Creed with Bergers and Tmk.

If I had formed my opinion on the 125 Partitions I used to shoot, I'd think moderate rifles were slow killers as well. They work as designed, but they do not kill nearly as fast as the above mentioned.

Also, how many of you are shooting 300+ rounds a year through a magnum? I know some do, my hunting partner being one of them, but I'd bet they are in a small minority. It's easy with a moderate 6, 25, or 6.5.

Lastly, I wouldn't have killed my bull this fall with a breaked rifle, unless I would have blasted my hearing. There was only time to check legality and shoot.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

What is “comprehensive” to you? These questions matter.


My statements are based on thousands of animals from antelope to moose. Field necropsies and properly conducted terminal ballistics to correlate. There’s a 70+ plus page with tons of info. Every single naysayer that has tried it, no understands that it works.

In what state(s) is it even legal to use a .223 on big game? What is the sample size of hunters shooting .223 compared to all other calibers? I have a very hard time believing the efficacy of such a study. Who was doing the shooting and recovering? Sounds fishy as hell to me.

I like this comparison and it’s not academic.

Let's take a look at a couple factory loads from Federal. Both sighted in at 200 yards with statistics based on 300 yard target. Handloads would get you more juice out of both calibers, but since MOST guys buy factory ammo, I think this is a realistic comparison for sake of argument.

62 grain .223 Trophy bonded tip
MV- 2024; energy- 564 lb./ft.; drop- 8.1"; drift- 11.9"

200 grain .35 Whelen fusion soft point
MV- 2055; energy- 1876 lb./ft.; drop 8.7"; drift- 9.5"

My teenage girls can shoot that Whelen load all afternoon in t-shirts out of a 25" barrel CVA scout. This isn't about recoil or ballistics. The .35 at common elk ranges outperforms the .223 in velocity and energy with virtually the same trajectory. I imagine a 6mm, .25, .280, etc... would perform similarly against the .223. I guess I'm missing something in this argument.

 

[Indian Summer]

I won’t talk energy and range limits and all that jazz. Effective means simply killing the animal…. AND FINDING IT! Dead doesn’t just mean dead in the world of elk hunting. It means in the freezer.

If a .223 will kill an elk it must be a great whitetail gun right? A .30-.06 is an awesome deer gun right? Can we agree that many a deer has been shot with those and other adequate calibers but not recovered? Never mind the reason right now. Those deer were on flat ground most likely in an area the hunter knew like the back of his hand. And their home range is roughly 1 square mile. Now look at the circumstances of an elk kill. Huge country. Steep. Rugged. And by no means do you know every inch of it. Now look at an elk. Big. Heavy boned. Giant lungs and gallons of blood. Even with a half decent shot they can barrel downhill to parts unknown in the blink of an eye. You know that deer you recovered the next day? The one where you looked at your buddy and said wow we were within a few yards of him last night and just didn’t see him. The chances of that happening with elk are substantially higher. Only that next day recovery is substantially lower.

Killing elk means dropping them in their tracks or at least within a few steps. That’s the definition of effective.

We’ve all learned a few lessons the hard way. Once we get an idea in our head it doesn’t matter what other people say. We’ve thought it out. But all the thoughts in the world don’t replace experience. For that reason lots of elk hunters don’t go buy the right tool for the job until they’ve learned for themselves. I’m cool with however you choose to learn your lessons most of the time but when it comes to shooting elk I can’t refrain from commenting. Why? Because I’ve seen elk shot with every caliber there is and guess what… they are not all the right tool for such an important job.

You can come back and say yeah well if a hunter makes a poor shot with a heavier caliber the result will be the same. Yes… sometimes even an actual screwdriver slips off of the screw. But don’t tell me a butter knife is just as effective because you used one. Taking a life is a bigger deal than taking out a screw too so……

 

[Formidilosus]

In what state(s) is it even legal to use a .223 on big game?

Nearly all of them.

What is the sample size of hunters shooting .223 compared to all other calibers? I have a very hard time believing the efficacy of such a study. Who was doing the shooting and recovering?

In a bit over 200 game animals with 223’s from a few feet to over 600 yards, only 2 animals- one antelope and one WT deer that have been hit, have been poor shots (one high, one low). The antelope was hit in the leg just below the chest and was killed a few minutes later cleanly. The deer was skimmed high, barely knocking hair off and survived. Two others by very poor shooters were misses- two turkeys. So in those 200+ animals, four total have been anything other than “bang” dead animal very quickly. At no point has anyone passed a shot that they wanted because of angle or bone.

Contrast that with the last 200 animals shot with 30cals from 30/06 and larger, around 1 out every 7 is a poor shot resulting in a wounded animal, and misses are around twice as likely.

Sounds fishy as hell to me.

Ok. There’s a huge thread with hundreds of pictures and posts showing just that.

I like this comparison and it’s not academic.

The irony, is the one on the right can easily be used with a projectile that causes larger wounds then the cartridge and projectile on the left.

 

[Formidilosus]

I won’t talk energy and range limits and all that jazz. Effective means simply killing the animal…. AND FINDING IT! Dead doesn’t just mean dead in the world of elk hunting. It means in the freezer.

I’m sure you have way more experience with killing elk in all, and with 223 and TMK’s than I- I only killed or was the spotter and performed necropsies on 14 elk this season (IIRC), however- read the response I wrote above. The “recovery and in the freezer” rate of game animals shot at with the 223/77gr TMK is by far highest of any I have experience with out to 450’ish yards. Not one or two animals. Not a dozen or two-hundreds with each of .224’s, 6mm’s, 6.5’s, and 30 cals. A significant amount, but not hundreds with 25’s, 7mm’s, and 338’s.

If a .223 will kill an elk it must be a great whitetail gun right? A .30-.06 is an awesome deer gun right? Can we agree that many a deer has been shot with those and other adequate calibers but not recovered? Never mind the reason right now. Those deer were on flat ground most likely in an area the hunter knew like the back of his hand. And their home range is roughly 1 square mile. Now look at the circumstances of an elk kill. Huge country. Steep. Rugged. And by no means do you know every inch of it. Now look at an elk. Big. Heavy boned. Giant lungs and gallons of blood. Even with a half decent shot they can barrel downhill to parts unknown in the blink of an eye. You know that deer you recovered the next day? The one where you looked at your buddy and said wow we were within a few yards of him last night and just didn’t see him. The chances of that happening with elk are substantially higher. Only that next day recovery is substantially lower.

Killing elk means dropping them in their tracks or at least within a few steps. That’s the definition of effective.

Than there are no calibers that are effective. There is not one single caliber or cartridge that has a better than 50% chance of the elk dropping within a “few steps” from a standard lung shot, if the meaning of “few” is less then 20-30.

Where you are wrong, is that you believe the correlation is between “larger caliber” and “quicker killing”. That is not correct. The “correlation is between “larger wounds” and “quicker killing”, yet is the thing that most, including you do not seem to understand. The wound channel is primarily controlled by bullet construction. Yes, larger calibers at like impact velocities have the potential to create larger wounds than smaller, however almost everyone artificially chokes down the larger calibers by choosing bullets that create narrow wounds.

We’ve all learned a few lessons the hard way. Once we get an idea in our head it doesn’t matter what other people say. We’ve thought it out. But all the thoughts in the world don’t replace experience.

How many animals have you killed- experience- with the 77gr TMK from a 223 or larger?

I’m cool with however you choose to learn your lessons most of the time but when it comes to shooting elk I can’t refrain from commenting. Why? Because I’ve seen elk shot with every caliber there is and guess what… they are not all the right tool for such an important job.

Why are you ignoring the one aspect that produces the wounds that kill? The projectile.

You can come back and say yeah well if a hunter makes a poor shot with a heavier caliber the result will be the same. Yes… sometimes even an actual screwdriver slips off of the screw. But don’t tell me a butter knife is just as effective because you used one. Taking a life is a bigger deal than taking out a screw too so……

It a poor analogy as it has no relation to the subject at hand. The reality is that the 77gr TMK from 223’s creates wounds- that is actual measured damage of those big bad unkillable elk, that is larger and far more damaging than the vast majority of “elk” rounds.

Here’s the last elk shot with the 223/77gr TMK at 287 yards-




Are you actually going to state that you think that is “marginal”?

 

[Newtosavage]

Let me know when all the professional elk guides start telling their clients to bring .223's with TMK's along.

 

[Formidilosus]

Let me know when all the professional elk guides start telling their clients to bring .223's with TMK's along.

So you can not have discussion with facts or refute the “data” provided, but instead try an appeal to authority?

What is your experience with guides that makes you believe that guides are knowledgeable about terminal ballistics and shooting?

 

[686]

Nearly all of them.

This is misinformation. I haven’t checked every state, but I know Wyoming and Colorado do not allow .22 caliber rifles for hunting elk; .24 caliber minimum. See below.

 

[Formidilosus]

This is misinformation. I haven’t checked every state, but I know Wyoming and Colorado do not allow .22 caliber rifles for hunting elk; .24 caliber minimum. See below.

Two out of fifty? There are more than that, however “nearly all” doesn’t mean all. It means most and the quote that I replied to was “game”, not just elk.

 

[Newtosavage]

So you can not have discussion with facts or refute the “data” provided, but instead try an appeal to authority?

What is your experience with guides that makes you believe that guides are knowledgeable about terminal ballistics and shooting?

I can't compete with "thousands of animals from antelope to moose. Field necropsies and properly conducted terminal ballistics " that you somehow have.

And why wouldn't guides be knowledgeable about terminal ballistics and shooting? They literally watch hunters shoot elk for a living. But what the hell do I know. LOL

 

[Newtosavage]

Two out of fifty? There are more than that, however “nearly all” doesn’t mean all. It means most and the quote that I replied to was “game”, not just elk.

move those goalposts....

 

[686]

Two out of fifty? There are more than that, however “nearly all” doesn’t mean all. It means most and the quote that I replied to was “game”, not just elk.

The thread topic and title is Elk hunting. The data I’ve seen show a U.S. elk population of about 1 million; of which about 400,000 reside in Colorado and Wyoming. So while those are only 2 states out of 50; it takes 40% of the elk out of the equation if you want to hunt with calibers less than .24. I’d say that is significant.

 

[Formidilosus]

The thread topic and title is Elk hunting. The data I’ve seen show a U.S. elk population of about 1 million; of which about 400,000 reside in Colorado and Wyoming. So while those are only 2 states out of 50; it takes 40% of the elk out of the equation if you want to hunt with calibers less than .24. I’d say that is significant.

I replied to a quote. I answered the quote correctly. At no point have I stated that .224’s are legal in nearly all states for elk, though it actually is.

 

[Formidilosus]

move those goalposts....

What goalposts did I move? I responded to a specific quote, with a specific and correct answer.