Elk .243 or 25-06

[Formidilosus]

I can't compete with "thousands of animals from antelope to moose. Field necropsies and properly conducted terminal ballistics " that you somehow have.

So why argue a position that you do not know? I personally do not discuss things that I do not have experience with.

And why wouldn't guides be knowledgeable about terminal ballistics and shooting? They literally watch hunters shoot elk for a living. But what the hell do I know. LOL

Watching people shoot, miss, and wound elk does not teach someone about shooting or terminal ballistics unless that person knows what they are doing and does research, I.E.- how many elk guides are conducting autopsies of the elk their clients kill? How many understand terminal ballistics well enough to make good judgements of what they’re looking at if they did so? And how many are correlating all of that together?

While I am sure that there are some extremely knowledgeable guides with regards to shooting and terminal ballistics, I have never met one, and the general sentiment for everyone I have met that has been on multiple guided trips is that they know animals and generally hunting techniques; technical knowledge of shooting and bullets is not their strong suit. And why would it be?
I hunt and kill a lot of animals by near anyone’s standards, and help quite a few people each year to get animals, yet I do not talk about hunting strategies or techniques of guiding hunters. “Guiding” hunters has little bearing on what I do.

 

[Newtosavage]

So why argue a position that you do not know? I personally do not discuss things that I do not have experience with.





Watching people shoot, miss, and wound elk does not teach someone about shooting or terminal ballistics unless that person knows what they are doing and does research, I.E.- how many elk guides are conducting autopsies of the elk their clients kill? How many understand terminal ballistics well enough to make good judgements of what they’re looking at if they did so? And how many are correlating all of that together?

While I am sure that there are some extremely knowledgeable guides with regards to shooting and terminal ballistics, I have never met one, and the general sentiment for everyone I have met that has been on multiple guided trips is that they know animals and generally hunting techniques; technical knowledge of shooting and bullets is not their strong suit. And why would it be?
I hunt and kill a lot of animals by near anyone’s standards, and help quite a few people each year to get animals, yet I do not talk about hunting strategies or techniques of guiding hunters. “Guiding” hunters has little bearing on what I do.

You sure aren't giving professional guides much credit here.

I'm out. You know more than everyone else on the topic, including the states, clearly. They should hire you as a consultant with your "thousands" of data points. LOL

 

[Indian Summer]

I respect your opinion. That’s mine. Based on real experiences. If I saw different results you and I would be on the same side of the fence.

Let me ask you a legit question. No sarcasm and I’d appreciate an answer. If you went cape buffalo hunting would you take a .223? What about moose or big coastal brown bears? You’ll probably say yes for the sake of argument but I bet you wouldn’t. I can’t imagine needing or wanting to use a caliber that light. One reason you definitely wouldn’t is because Africa, like Alaska and most states there is a minimum legal caliber. My next question is why do they have legal minimums?


Ok one more… your thoughts on energy and effectiveness? Obviously that is or should be a consideration at some point down range.

 

[Indian Summer]

Oh and in response to a comment somewhere back there… of the last 10 bulls I killed ranging from 70 to 405 yards not one took more than 2 steps. The one that took 2 was 1 step forward, one sideways and down. The fact that some think that’s not possible says a thing or two about their gun of choice compared to what I prefer to use.

And for the record the reason I preach about this subject every time it comes up is I’m a huge empath and animal lover and I really don’t care to watch them flop around much if at all. Try feeling that way and being an outfitter. It’s like a conflict of interest within yourself. When a hunter wounds an animal I always felt like I was an enabler and partly responsible.

With muzzle brakes or suppressors and good quality pads for rifle stocks I feel like everyone can put together a gun that packs a little more energy than they can normally comfortably shoot.

 

[Formidilosus]

I respect your opinion. That’s mine. Based on real experiences. If I saw different results you and I would be on the same side of the fence.

That’s the thing though, we didn’t see different results because you haven’t used any of the bullets that are being discussed. I have never stated that a 223 or 243 is a great elk cartridge by itself. They kill very well when combined with optimized bullets, and these conversations and back and forth discussions continue to happen because people can not or will not grasp that projectiles matter. A 223 with a 50gr Pro Point is not the same gun as a 223 with a 77gr TMK. And a 223 with 70gr Barnes TSX is not the same gun as a 223 with TMK’s. The bullet matters. If I shot narrow wounding, deep penetrating bullets I would believe that magnums are better across the board as well.

Let me ask you a legit question. No sarcasm and I’d appreciate an answer. If you went cape buffalo hunting would you take a .223? What about moose or big coastal brown bears?

Brown bears without question. Not only would I, it’s the exact combo I would choose to use. Bears like all predators are a joke physiologically.

Cape buffalo? I wouldn’t have a problem with it, but having not seen them taken apart so I couldn’t say whether it would be acceptable or not.


Most of the big five have been nearly made extinct at points over the last 75 years or so. Was it big bores that were used to do so?

You’ll probably say yes for the sake of argument but I bet you wouldn’t.

You believe I will change an answer to “argue”? I state what is real and measurable, I do not care about arguments.

I can’t imagine needing or wanting to use a caliber that light

You are so irrevocably stuck on “caliber” that you can not see that it is about the wound created. I showed you a picture and asked whether you really thought that was marginal. So I ask again- do you believe that the damage created on that elk is marginal? Because if you don’t, it doesn’t matter what caliber was used.

One reason you definitely wouldn’t is because Africa, like Alaska and most states there is a minimum legal caliber. My next question is why do they have legal minimums?

In the vast majority of states the legal caliber minimum if there is one is mostly .22 or .24. They have legal minimums because they have no idea what terminal ballistics is, and they were mostly written a long time ago by people not based on reality or data, but by emotion.

Ok one more… your thoughts on energy and effectiveness? Obviously that is or should be a consideration at some point down range.

I have written and given a lot of information and links to peer reviewed medical and terminal ballistics studies and research before on “energy”. Ft-lbs of energy is not a wounding mechanism, does not tell you how deep, how wide, or the overall shape of a wound in an animal a bullet will cause.

There is no correlation to ft-lbs of energy to the wound created.

 

[BuzzH]

I respect your opinion. That’s mine. Based on real experiences. If I saw different results you and I would be on the same side of the fence.

Let me ask you a legit question. No sarcasm and I’d appreciate an answer. If you went cape buffalo hunting would you take a .223? What about moose or big coastal brown bears? You’ll probably say yes for the sake of argument but I bet you wouldn’t. I can’t imagine needing or wanting to use a caliber that light. One reason you definitely wouldn’t is because Africa, like Alaska and most states there is a minimum legal caliber. My next question is why do they have legal minimums?


Ok one more… your thoughts on energy and effectiveness? Obviously that is or should be a consideration at some point down range.

Friend of mine that posts on a few boards, not sure if he posts on this one, took his 260 rem hunting grizzlies and killed IIRC a B&C bear with it. He also shot a dandy MT pronghorn, with a .338 lapua, IIRC, the same fall. He's also killed just shy of a metric chit ton of animals from deer, elk, sheep, bears, goats, etc. etc. with a .220 swift.

For the record, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot anything in NA with my 7-08 and a 140 grain accubond, including brown bears/grizzlies. I've shot 21 elk with that round, probably seen about that many more shot with it. Seems to work right fair, IME.

 

[BuzzH]

In what state(s) is it even legal to use a .223 on big game? What is the sample size of hunters shooting .223 compared to all other calibers? I have a very hard time believing the efficacy of such a study. Who was doing the shooting and recovering? Sounds fishy as hell to me.

I like this comparison and it’s not academic.

Let's take a look at a couple factory loads from Federal. Both sighted in at 200 yards with statistics based on 300 yard target. Handloads would get you more juice out of both calibers, but since MOST guys buy factory ammo, I think this is a realistic comparison for sake of argument.

62 grain .223 Trophy bonded tip
MV- 2024; energy- 564 lb./ft.; drop- 8.1"; drift- 11.9"

200 grain .35 Whelen fusion soft point
MV- 2055; energy- 1876 lb./ft.; drop 8.7"; drift- 9.5"

My teenage girls can shoot that Whelen load all afternoon in t-shirts out of a 25" barrel CVA scout. This isn't about recoil or ballistics. The .35 at common elk ranges outperforms the .223 in velocity and energy with virtually the same trajectory. I imagine a 6mm, .25, .280, etc... would perform similarly against the .223. I guess I'm missing something in this argument.

Montana has no caliber restrictions, I have killed deer there with a .22 magum rimfire. I know guys that have killed deer there with .17's. Know/knew lots of people in Montana that hunt regularly with .22-250's and .220 swifts for big-game there.

Wyoming you can use .22 centerfires but have to use a 60 grain bullet for deer and pronghorn.

 

[crossone]

Why is a troll the moderator? I quit another website for badmouthing a certain brand of barrel that was a piece of garbage (they replaced it for free and it only cost me $450 and the new one is slightly better than a factory Remington, so they can still kiss my a**) and the moderator warned me for reporting the truth. So I quit. I hope he's sitting on an ant hill in Texas right now.

So, let's get it on.

There is NO WAY IN HELL THAT A .223 REMINGTON IS AN EFFECTIVE OR ACCEPTABLE ELK CARTRIDGE!!!

I'm tired of you guys trying to argue your case against someone who has killed entire herds of elk with a single blast from his .223 cannon!!!

He's killed 100's of elk with a .223 and witnessed the extinction of the great plains buffalo with a 77 TMk! Sperm whales whisper his name in holy terror but only at the great depths because not since the comet hit that killed the dinosaurs has ANYTHING been fired to match a 77gr TMK!!!

Moving on to other things now gents...

Have fun convincing him not to blow up the entire country if he were to shoot an entire box of Shells.

 

[Indian Summer]

Man these threads get so complicated. I’m not a ballistics expert. I don’t need to be. I know enough. Can we keep it simple? You keep saying it’s impossible to drop an elk in it’s tracks. I’m telling you that’s the norm for me. I’m probably overgunned with a .300 RUM. But I have a purpose for the gun. The bull I shot year before last hit the ground flat on impact. No shoulder shot. He slid downhill about 15 feet and literally never kicked a leg or twitched. The gun sucks for deer. It zips a bullet through them like a laser without all that much damage and I’ve had them run over 75 yards. But elk hit the dirt every time.

If there’s such a thing as over gunned there’s such a thing as under. A bigger heavier bullet traveling fast stores a shitload of energy AND retains that energy much further. It’s like a wrecking ball! I know you want to talk about bullet structure and that kinda stuff. I’m always assuming we’re talking equal bullets so it’s apples to apples there. Put it this way… assuming the punch landed in the same place would you rather get slugged by PeeWee Herman or Mike Tyson?

And regardless of what a pea shooter will do to a cape buffalo or grizzly why would one not opt to use something that was just going to get the job done faster even when all the details of the shot distance, angle, placement etc aren’t perfect? If you ever shoot me brother please use my gun not yours! Lol

Back up shot? What’s that? Ammo costs too much for that.

I gotta hit the hay but tomorrow I’ll tell you about the big cow my niece shot with my mother’s .243. It was a real eye opener for me.

 

[crossone]

Oh, before I go...Formidelicious, don't think that I can't tell from the picture on the previous page that it's a calf that you spined with your bazooka.

If you don't get your rokslide license revoked for this BS, I'm gone.

I have better things to do than get trolled.

All'ya'll (the definitive plural) need to quit this thread. Maybe this forum.

Out

 

[Marble]

So why argue a position that you do not know? I personally do not discuss things that I do not have experience with.





Watching people shoot, miss, and wound elk does not teach someone about shooting or terminal ballistics unless that person knows what they are doing and does research, I.E.- how many elk guides are conducting autopsies of the elk their clients kill? How many understand terminal ballistics well enough to make good judgements of what they’re looking at if they did so? And how many are correlating all of that together?

While I am sure that there are some extremely knowledgeable guides with regards to shooting and terminal ballistics, I have never met one, and the general sentiment for everyone I have met that has been on multiple guided trips is that they know animals and generally hunting techniques; technical knowledge of shooting and bullets is not their strong suit. And why would it be?
I hunt and kill a lot of animals by near anyone’s standards, and help quite a few people each year to get animals, yet I do not talk about hunting strategies or techniques of guiding hunters. “Guiding” hunters has little bearing on what I do.

I would guess that the experience you gain in a decade of killing stuff is experienced by a busy guide in just a couple years.

They are the experts. They see more than any of us. Their opinion should be heavily weighted.

I've been killing and processing elk for 20 years. I would guess at a minimum I've processed 60 elk, at the high side 80. I don't even think I would be close to the experience of a guide with 4 to 5 years.

And if you think gutting and breaking down an animal isn't an autopsy...well I've been to plenty and they are just like gutting and prepping an animal for butchering.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[Newtosavage]

I would guess that the experience you gain in a decade of killing stuff is experienced by a busy guide in just a couple years.

They are the experts. They see more than any of us. Their opinion should be heavily weighted.

I've been killing and processing elk for 20 years. I would guess at a minimum I've processed 60 elk, at the high side 80. I don't even think I would be close to the experience of a guide with 4 to 5 years.

And if you think gutting and breaking down an animal isn't an autopsy...well I've been to plenty and they are just like gutting and prepping an animal for butchering.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

As I said, he gives professional guides no credit at all, which should tell us all something.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

@Formidilosus

From the Sierra website...

"While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts."

If the TMK was such a lethal big game round and so widely praised for nuking "thousands" of antelope, moose, elk, etc..., why doesn't Sierra explicitly market this bullet as such? Seems to me the manufacturer should have some expertise, albeit maybe not as much as you, and that they are missing out on significant market share to us lemmings that believe in tried and true cartridges explicityly designed for big game.

 

[KurtR]

Friend of mine that posts on a few boards, not sure if he posts on this one, took his 260 rem hunting grizzlies and killed IIRC a B&C bear with it. He also shot a dandy MT pronghorn, with a .338 lapua, IIRC, the same fall. He's also killed just shy of a metric chit ton of animals from deer, elk, sheep, bears, goats, etc. etc. with a .220 swift.

For the record, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot anything in NA with my 7-08 and a 140 grain accubond, including brown bears/grizzlies. I've shot 21 elk with that round, probably seen about that many more shot with it. Seems to work right fair, IME.

Seeing his results is what convinced me shot placement bullet construction are both way higher on the list than head stamp. When he put that griz story up peoples heads were exploding.

 

[woods89]

@Formidilosus

From the Sierra website...

"While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts."

If the TMK was such a lethal big game round and so widely praised for nuking "thousands" of antelope, moose, elk, etc..., why doesn't Sierra explicitly market this bullet as such? Seems to me the manufacturer should have some expertise, albeit maybe not as much as you, and that they are missing out on significant market share to us lemmings that believe in tried and true cartridges explicityly designed for big game.

From what I've been told, there are entities that buy way more ammo than hunters that cannot use a bullet designed ( maybe marketed is a better term)for hunting because of policy.
All I can say is try them. They are amazingly effective.

 

[BigNate]

I know you are set in your mind that what you're being told is impossible, but it isn't.

It's also obvious that anyone on this forum that is so adamant against shooting big game with the Sierra 77gr TMK out of a .223 clearly hasn't looked at the dead animal pictures in the 70+ page thread. This isn't an issue of faith, as there are actual photos, described tests, data, etc from many.

Using something you aren't familiar with would be hard. But not being willing to consider what is being shown to you is just bull headed.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

@Formidilosus

From the Sierra website...

"While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts."

If the TMK was such a lethal big game round and so widely praised for nuking "thousands" of antelope, moose, elk, etc..., why doesn't Sierra explicitly market this bullet as such? Seems to me the manufacturer should have some expertise, albeit maybe not as much as you, and that they are missing out on significant market share to us lemmings that believe in tried and true cartridges explicityly designed for big game.

Berger used to say the same thing about their bullets that are now marketed to hunters. It took people trying them and telling Berger they performed for it to change. And to woods89 suggested, Sierra might be incentivized to keep it as a non hunting bullet

 

[ARK_Ginger]

There is NO WAY IN HELL THAT A .223 REMINGTON IS AN EFFECTIVE OR ACCEPTABLE ELK CARTRIDGE!!!

These threads are always so exciting. Maybe you should realize is that people (Form) are trying to advocate bullet choices and not cartridges. And by providing evidence for those claims, such as the 70+ page thread, is providing a service to the forum and not trolling. And by combatting conversations saturated with dogma about cartridges, such as this one, is providing a service to the informed hunting community and not trolling.

People always seem surprised when their gun-store level reasoning meets data and the result is these threads spiral to their predictable end.

 

[BuzzH]

@Formidilosus

From the Sierra website...

"While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts."

If the TMK was such a lethal big game round and so widely praised for nuking "thousands" of antelope, moose, elk, etc..., why doesn't Sierra explicitly market this bullet as such? Seems to me the manufacturer should have some expertise, albeit maybe not as much as you, and that they are missing out on significant market share to us lemmings that believe in tried and true cartridges explicityly designed for big game.

I've heard that same stuff from people about nosler ballistic tips too.

I shot a fair few deer and pronghorn as well as a mountain lion with my .22-250 using 55 grain nosler ballistic tips...same exact load I used to kill coyotes.

Of course that was back before the internet experts told everyone that was impossible.

 

[Mtnmilsurp]

Will somebody please post a link to that 223 thread? I couldn't find it. Thanks, Milsurp