Elk .243 or 25-06

[ARK_Ginger]

@Mtnmilsurp

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

www.rokslide.com

 

[Mtnmilsurp]

Thanks!

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Kudos to ya'll that want to go shoot at big game animals with .223s. I wish you the best of luck where its legal. I just hope that you and all the folks that you advocate shooting this round to are as proficient with it as @Formidilosus. My understanding is that he is one of those exceedingly rare people that has the opportunity to shoot pallets of ammo every year. However, the fact remains that very, very, few hunters shoot more than 100 rounds out of their hunting rifles every year. And the fact also remains that there are many if not dozens of traditional and new hunting cartridges that kill as effectively (I'm not going rehash the semantics on this term) or more so than a .223.

IMO, this kind of thinking and advocacy is dangerous, because pretty soon you'll have folks taking 500 yard shots at big game out of their ARs; spraying and praying that they will get hits because some guy on a thread said it was okay. More than likely they won't be using the super special 77gr TMK either. Instead, they will find what they think is equivalent or "good enough" .223 ammo. To @Indian Summer's point, we are talking about taking animal lives here, and doing so in the most responsible and resepectful way should be important to all of us.

If recoil and flinching are the bases of this argument, there are plenty of soft recoiling rifles that are more adequate for an average hunter than a .223 for elk. On the light side you have the .24 and .25 calibers, on the mid side .26, .27, 6mm, 6.5, and .28, followed by traditional .30s.

Recoil and flinching are not a problem for my daughters or myself with my .308 or .35 whelen, and we will gladly continue to shoot these big, fat, under-penetrating, inadequate, and unproven big game cartridges. WE OUT!

 

[KurtR]

Kudos to ya'll that want to go shoot at big game animals with .223s. I wish you the best of luck where its legal. I just hope that you and all the folks that you advocate shooting this round to are as proficient with it as @Formidilosus. My understanding is that he is one of those exceedingly rare people that has the opportunity to shoot pallets of ammo every year. However, the fact remains that very, very, few hunters shoot more than 100 rounds out of their hunting rifles every year. And the fact also remains that there are many if not dozens of traditional and new hunting cartridges that kill as effectively (I'm not going rehash the semantics on this term) or more so than a .223.

IMO, this kind of thinking and advocacy is dangerous, because pretty soon you'll have folks taking 500 yard shots at big game out of their ARs; spraying and praying that they will get hits because some guy on a thread said it was okay. More than likely they won't be using the super special 77gr TMK either. Instead, they will find what they think is equivalent or "good enough" .223 ammo. To @Indian Summer's point, we are talking about taking animal lives here, and doing so in the most responsible and resepectful way should be important to all of us.

If recoil and flinching are the bases of this argument, there are plenty of soft recoiling rifles that are more adequate for an average hunter than a .223 for elk. On the light side you have the .24 and .25 calibers, on the mid side .26, .27, 6mm, 6.5, and .28, followed by traditional .30s.

Recoil and flinching are not a problem for my daughters or myself with my .308 or .35 whelen, and we will gladly continue to shoot these big, fat, under-penetrating, inadequate, and unproven big game cartridges. WE OUT!

You do know that .24 and 6mm are the same and .26 and 6.5 are the same bullet diameters.

 

[260madman]

You do know that .24 and 6mm are the same and .26 and 6.5 are the same bullet diameters.

Shhh. Experts are adulting, I’m trying to learn.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

You do know that .24 and 6mm are the same and .26 and 6.5 are the same bullet diameters.

Thank you for catching my gross misstatement! That changes everything!

 

[woods89]

Kudos to ya'll that want to go shoot at big game animals with .223s. I wish you the best of luck where its legal. I just hope that you and all the folks that you advocate shooting this round to are as proficient with it as @Formidilosus. My understanding is that he is one of those exceedingly rare people that has the opportunity to shoot pallets of ammo every year. However, the fact remains that very, very, few hunters shoot more than 100 rounds out of their hunting rifles every year. And the fact also remains that there are many if not dozens of traditional and new hunting cartridges that kill as effectively (I'm not going rehash the semantics on this term) or more so than a .223.

IMO, this kind of thinking and advocacy is dangerous, because pretty soon you'll have folks taking 500 yard shots at big game out of their ARs; spraying and praying that they will get hits because some guy on a thread said it was okay. More than likely they won't be using the super special 77gr TMK either. Instead, they will find what they think is equivalent or "good enough" .223 ammo. To @Indian Summer's point, we are talking about taking animal lives here, and doing so in the most responsible and resepectful way should be important to all of us.

If recoil and flinching are the bases of this argument, there are plenty of soft recoiling rifles that are more adequate for an average hunter than a .223 for elk. On the light side you have the .24 and .25 calibers, on the mid side .26, .27, 6mm, 6.5, and .28, followed by traditional .30s.

Recoil and flinching are not a problem for my daughters or myself with my .308 or .35 whelen, and we will gladly continue to shoot these big, fat, under-penetrating, inadequate, and unproven big game cartridges. WE OUT!

Right or wrong, what people with poor judgment do with Ar's has zero bearing on my cartridge choices.

You are right that most people don't shoot enough.

 

[KurtR]

Thank you for catching my gross misstatement! That changes everything!

Well if you are going to speak on it as an expert details should be right. I dont have experience with the 223 with the tmk but have seen it kill deer very well. I have killed a bunch with the 308 and even more with my creedmoor i had built before they were a production caliber and unless you pushing the heavy.308 with a 10 twist I will take the 6.5 for terminal ballistics on deer. I have only shot one elk one time with the 6.5 and it died both lungs and heart was mush and the 143 excited. Shot placement, bullet construction and then head stamp is what has been my experience when it comes to killing. Look up pat sinclair lots of examples of terminal ballistics.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Well if you are going to speak on it as an expert details should be right. I dont have experience with the 223 with the tmk but have seen it kill deer very well. I have killed a bunch with the 308 and even more with my creedmoor i had built before they were a production caliber and unless you pushing the heavy.308 with a 10 twist I will take the 6.5 for terminal ballistics on deer. I have only shot one elk one time with the 6.5 and it died both lungs and heart was mush and the 143 excited. Shot placement, bullet construction and then head stamp is what has been my experience when it comes to killing. Look up pat sinclair lots of examples of terminal ballistics.

I never claimed to be an expert and prefaced my comments as being my opinion. You do know that IMO means "in my opinion".

Congrats on the success with your .308 and 6.5. I've shot one elk (profile pic) with a 175gr Federal TA at 80 yards and it went less than 50 yards. Caliber size entry and about 3" diameter exit after liquifying both lungs and smashing through an offside rib. Bullet wasn't recovered. Regarding 6.5 vs. .308, that's been debated to death, and at the ranges I prefer to shoot (350 or less) elk don't know the difference.

I've bow hunted for more than 20 years, and I fully appreciate the value of shot placement. I've been shotgun and muzzleloader hunting for whitetails equally long and also understand the importance of bullet construction, especially in low velocity projectiles. As a result, shooting high powers has been a recent treat, and I did a lot of research on several calibers prior to building my .308. Look up some of Jeff Cooper's writings on the .308 and 7mm-08 and the utiliy of the scout rifle concept.

 

[KurtR]

I never claimed to be an expert and prefaced my comments as being my opinion. You do know that IMO means "in my opinion".

Congrats on the success with your .308 and 6.5. I've shot one elk (profile pic) with a 175gr Federal TA at 80 yards and it went less than 50 yards. Caliber size entry and about 3" diameter exit after liquifying both lungs and smashing through an offside rib. Bullet wasn't recovered. Regarding 6.5 vs. .308, that's been debated to death, and at the ranges I prefer to shoot (350 or less) elk don't know the difference.

I've bow hunted for more than 20 years, and I fully appreciate the value of shot placement. I've been shotgun and muzzleloader hunting for whitetails equally long and also understand the importance of bullet construction, especially in low velocity projectiles. As a result, shooting high powers has been a recent treat, and I did a lot of research on several calibers prior to building my .308. Look up some of Jeff Cooper's writings on the .308 and 7mm-08 and the utiliy of the scout rifle concept.

Who built your 308? What are the specs on it

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Who built your 308? What are the specs on it

The good folks at Ruger built the Ruger American barrel and action with one piece bolt and accutrigger. I fitted, bedded, and installed a custom stock.

• Stock- Custom Boyd's Prairie Hunter wood laminate with 1" Pachmyr recoil pad
  • Aluminum pillar and glass bedded
• Barrel Length- 22"
• Barrel Material- Alloy Steel
• Model Option- Left-Handed
• Twist- 1:10" RH
• Grooves- 5
• Capacity- 4
• Barrel Finish- Matte Black
• Optics- 4.5-14x42 Burris Fullfield E1

Best groups I've achieved with this rifle at 200 yards are 1" with Federal 175gr TA and 1.75" with Federal 180gr TBT. The outfitter we hunted with in MT had a 160 grain minimum for all rifles regardless of caliber.

 

[KurtR]

The good folks at Ruger built the Ruger American barrel and action with one piece bolt and accutrigger. I fitted, bedded, and installed a custom stock.

• Stock- Custom Boyd's Prairie Hunter wood laminate with 1" Pachmyr recoil pad
  • Aluminum pillar and glass bedded
• Barrel Length- 22"
• Barrel Material- Alloy Steel
• Model Option- Left-Handed
• Twist- 1:10" RH
• Grooves- 5
• Capacity- 4
• Barrel Finish- Matte Black
• Optics- 4.5-14x42 Burris Fullfield E1

Best groups I've achieved with this rifle at 200 yards are 1" with Federal 175gr TA and 1.75" with Federal 180gr TBT. The outfitter we hunted with in MT had a 160 grain minimum for all rifles regardless of caliber.

Thats a factory rifle with a aftermarket stock. Building one involves gun smithing. Maybe having a range to see if people can shoot would be a better idea vs an out dated view on bullets

 

[BuzzH]

The good folks at Ruger built the Ruger American barrel and action with one piece bolt and accutrigger. I fitted, bedded, and installed a custom stock.

• Stock- Custom Boyd's Prairie Hunter wood laminate with 1" Pachmyr recoil pad
  • Aluminum pillar and glass bedded
• Barrel Length- 22"
• Barrel Material- Alloy Steel
• Model Option- Left-Handed
• Twist- 1:10" RH
• Grooves- 5
• Capacity- 4
• Barrel Finish- Matte Black
• Optics- 4.5-14x42 Burris Fullfield E1

Best groups I've achieved with this rifle at 200 yards are 1" with Federal 175gr TA and 1.75" with Federal 180gr TBT. The outfitter we hunted with in MT had a 160 grain minimum for all rifles regardless of caliber.

I wonder what "logic" the outfitter had for a 160 grain minimum?

I've killed around 40ish elk combined with a 7RM shooting 160 grain AB's and a 7-08 shooting 140 AB's...you can't show me a difference between the two in killing elk...no way, unless your forte' is picking fly manure out of the pepper.

 

[sndmn11]

Caliber size entry and about 3" diameter exit after liquifying both lungs and smashing through an offside rib. Bullet wasn't recovered.

This seems to be the goal; broken vitals. I am not understanding the issue with this being achieved in more ways than a few? If the result is the same between A-Z, why fret?

 

[BigNate]

I think some of these outfitting guys make these "rules" because they have been on one too many shitshow rodeos , and because they have limited understanding of ballistics and bullet performance, they make knee jerk reactions.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Thats a factory rifle with a aftermarket stock. Building one involves gun smithing. Maybe having a range to see if people can shoot would be a better idea vs an out dated view on bullets

Last I checked gunsmiths bed a lot of stocks for guys, but hey, if my efforts to enhance the accuracy of my factory barrel and action by bedding and free floating my stock don’t meet your “build” criteria I’m not sorry.

I’m guessing that since their livelihood depends on hunters connecting and killing animals, and they’ve been in business for more than 30 years in the Bob, they have their reasons for a 160 grain min. I wasn’t going to argue about it. Regarding having a range, they expect guys to be able to shoot when they arrive. My bro and I checked our zeroes in Great Falls the day before our hunt.

 

[BuzzH]

I think some of these outfitting guys make these "rules" because they have been on one too many shitshow rodeos , and because they have limited understanding of ballistics and bullet performance, they make knee jerk reactions.

Yep, and plenty of them push clients to shoot farther and take shots they probably shouldn't for higher success rates.

Its sickening what goes on with sheep hunting in NW Wyoming...not many clients even get to use their own rifles.

I'm sure its similar with elk and deer.

 

[sndmn11]

This seems to be the goal; broken vitals. I am not understanding the issue with this being achieved in more ways than a few? If the result is the same between A-Z, why fret?

@jjohnsonElknewbie that was a question for you.

I agree that the goal is a fast death of the animal, I don't understand why it matters what device caused that. In this case, the bullet. The commonality between big bore and small bore kills are that an adequate bullet at an adequate velocity destroyed something vital to that animal's life. Why have angst over hunters doing that in a way different than yours and/or telling them they are wrong, rather than ignoring it or telling them good job?

 

[wannakillabigbull]

The good folks at Ruger built the Ruger American barrel and action with one piece bolt and accutrigger.

Ruger uses the accutrigger?

 

[roosiebull]

Oh, before I go...Formidelicious, don't think that I can't tell from the picture on the previous page that it's a calf that you spined with your bazooka.

If you don't get your rokslide license revoked for this BS, I'm gone.

I have better things to do than get trolled.

All'ya'll (the definitive plural) need to quit this thread. Maybe this forum.

Out

bye Falicia...