Do States care about point creep?

[CorbLand]

We're not talking about eventually, we're talking about right now. Hunt OTC while you still can. Go hunt ID OTC while you still can. Put in for WY, AZ, and NM while you're at it. Expand your horizons. If PP's get you down, then only apply for NM.......it's a totally random draw like many are proposing all states should have........a regular utopian draw process.

Wait I am confused. One of the main points of a point system is that you can prepare for the future but your telling us to not worry about the future? Also, can I borrow your credit card for those out of state tags?

 

[5MilesBack]

The price of that tag is in the realm of the upfront fee for Augusta. Then the yearly membership is cheaper than middle tier landowner tags. One would be better off trading weekends at Augusta for multiple land owner tags every year.

The whole problem with creep is that one day you won’t have any units to hunt OTC.

Pick your poison. I gave you an option when you said there was none, and you pissed all over it. Again, that's your choice. I haven't hunted OTC in 8 years, yet I still hunt every year......and that last year OTC I shot a 300+ archery bull. There are still plenty of opportunities for good hunting every year.

 

[Rizzy]

More states would get my application fee if there wasn’t point creep. That would be good for funding, but bad for draw odds...

 

[5MilesBack]

Wait I am confused. One of the main points of a point system is that you can prepare for the future but your telling us to not worry about the future? Also, can I borrow your credit card for those out of state tags?

I don't "worry" about much of anything, but with all the point creep everyone is talking about.......how does that allow you to "prepare for the future"? About all that does is tell you you have a heck of a lot more years to wait if you're waiting for top tier tags.

As for the credit card........just vote for Bernie, I'm sure he'll be handing them out for free since he wants everything else to be free as well.

 

[CorbLand]

I don't "worry" about much of anything, but with all the point creep everyone is talking about.......how does that allow you to "prepare for the future"? About all that does is tell you you have a heck of a lot more years to wait if you're waiting for top tier tags.

As for the credit card........just vote for Bernie, I'm sure he'll be handing them out for free since he wants everything else to be free as well.

The problem is that its not just top tier units. Its all units. When I started 5 years ago on the worst unit in Utah it took 4 points, its now 10. I literally cannot catch it. What am I supposed to do from there? I do my best to try and take advantage of every opportunity to hunt as I can but to sit back and not try and change a system I disagree with like you told me to do is stupid.

As to you comment back about the credit card. I am not really sure what relevance that holds to my point but ok...good one man.

 

[5MilesBack]

The problem is that its not just top tier units. Its all units. When I started 5 years ago on the worst unit in Utah it took 4 points, its now 10. I literally cannot catch it. What am I supposed to do from there? I do my best to try and take advantage of every opportunity to hunt as I can but to sit back and not try and change a system I disagree with like you told me to do is stupid.

As to you comment back about the credit card. I am not really sure what relevance that holds to my point but ok...good one man.

Uhhhh........you asked for MY credit card to pay for all those out of state hunts. I was just referring you to Uncle Bernie.

All I can say is.......if the worst unit in Utah takes 10 points to draw, I'd be moving or doing a heck of a lot of out of state hunts. Again........choices.

I "might" draw my favorite unit this year, but even if I do it will be the last time I apply for it. Anything more than a couple points just isn't worth it to me.......even my favorite unit. I'll just go exploring new units if need be. It's still elk hunting regardless where I'm hunting.

 

[CorbLand]

Uhhhh........you asked for MY credit card to pay for all those out of state hunts. I was just referring you to Uncle Bernie.

All I can say is.......if the worst unit in Utah takes 10 points to draw, I'd be moving or doing a heck of a lot of out of state hunts. Again........choices.

The point of the credit card is that not everyone has the ability to just hunt out of state. One day I will have the money to hunt out of state, thats my goal and it takes time but... the point that you keep brushing over is that and everyone is pointing out is that in the future its going to be worse, not better.

I plan to move out of this hell hole of a state but once again, where to? There are only two states that dont have a point system. Those that do are failing and OTC is vanishing. So, if its all crumbling around us, where do you go or do you just sit back and do nothing to change it?

 

[5MilesBack]

the point that you keep brushing over is that and everyone is pointing out is that in the future its going to be worse, not better.

Of course it's going to be worse. And eventually our currency will crash, our government will crumble, and we'll have a one-world government and currency.......that's a given. But why worry about all that, do what you can right now. And if you can't afford that, well.......not everyone can afford what they want. I've always wanted a 10k+ acre ranch in the mountains, but I can't afford that. So I have to settle for what I can afford and do what I can do.......right now.

While the states or their point systems might "influence" what, where, or how I hunt.......they don't determine "whether" I hunt........at least for now.

 

[CorbLand]

Of course it's going to be worse. And eventually our currency will crash, our government will crumble, and we'll have a one-world government and currency.......that's a given. But why worry about all that, do what you can right now. And if you can't afford that, well.......not everyone can afford what they want. I've always wanted a 10k+ acre ranch in the mountains, but I can't afford that. So I have to settle for what I can afford and do what I can do.......right now.

While the states or their point systems might "influence" what, where, or how I hunt.......they don't determine "whether" I hunt........at least for now.

But thats my point. Just because I come into this thread and "complain" about point systems doesnt me that I am not taking advantage about what is available now. It means that I am looking to the future and trying to make it better. I dont play the points game in mutiple states because I think its a sham. Doesnt mean that I dont try for other stuff but why shouldnt we try and change it for the future? I mean if everything is going to fail like you say, why do we do anything we do?

You are assuming that just because people complain or want to change something they arent taking advantage of what they can now. You want that 10 acre ranch, so you save for it doesnt mean you didnt go buy a house right?

I guess you just dont make sense. You tell us not to do anything to change anything and to live for now but also tell us to prepare for a future....so which is it?

 

[Vaultman]

Maybe allow people to sell their points. Or buy points from their deceased relatives.

 

[CorbLand]

Maybe allow people to sell their points. Or buy points from their deceased relatives.

That would make it worse.


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[MattB]

States care abut revenue. If point creep adversely impacts revenue, they care about it. That is why you see rules changing.

 

[Trial153]

For sale, 13 Wyoming moose points and 13 Wyoming sheep points.
1k a point or 25k for all of them.
Pay pal friends and family or you pay the fees.

 

[MichaelO]

When the OTC hunts disappear, and they will eventually. Point creep will cause a major barrier to entry for new hunters. Hard to convince someone to take up a new hobby that they might be able to try for the first time in 3-10 years.
This combined with more difficulty getting access to land for small game and the OTC deer tags that will most likely always be OTC will be the death of hunting.

 

[jmez]

States have a multitude of people paying money to stand in line to then spend more money on a tag. States love point creep.

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[5MilesBack]

Just because I come into this thread and "complain" about point systems doesnt me that I am not taking advantage about what is available now. It means that I am looking to the future and trying to make it better.

So what exactly do you see as the problem? We have a limited supply of tags (except OTC for now) and what seems to be an exponential growth in demand.......even though hunting numbers are apparently dwindling and we need to recruit anybody and everybody into the sport.

Well, I can guarantee you that the supply side of the equation is absolutely NOT going to grow at all.......now or ever. So that leaves the demand side. How do you fix that demand side??????? That's the problem. Points don't fix it, lottery draws won't fix it........to be quite honest, the only thing that brings supply and demand into equilibrium is "cost". Too much demand......raise the prices, too little demand lower the prices. But then folks complain incessantly about the price and the cost to hunt.

You see.......point creep isn't the problem, it's a symptom of the problem. But it's only a problem for those that are part of the demand side. It's a great problem to have if you're the states because that means the demand is high. So they can take advantage of that and raise prices, or add additional fees or tags onto it..........and get it........because of the demand. But the demand still exceeds the supply. So what if the states all started to charge $10k per tag? Would that decrease the demand? I would imagine........but how much? The key is finding that equilibrium point, and it will change as soon as either supply or demand changes.

 

[sndmn11]

When the OTC hunts disappear, and they will eventually. Point creep will cause a major barrier to entry for new hunters. Hard to convince someone to take up a new hobby that they might be able to try for the first time in 3-10 years.

Don't points reset to zero after used? So the 30 year hunter and the new hunter are equal, why would it be a barrier for one and not the other? The only thing preventing a new hunter from becoming just that is their own choice.

 

[CorbLand]

So what exactly do you see as the problem? We have a limited supply of tags (except OTC for now) and what seems to be an exponential growth in demand.......even though hunting numbers are apparently dwindling and we need to recruit anybody and everybody into the sport.

Well, I can guarantee you that the supply side of the equation is absolutely NOT going to grow at all.......now or ever. So that leaves the demand side. How do you fix that demand side??????? That's the problem. Points don't fix it, lottery draws won't fix it........to be quite honest, the only thing that brings supply and demand into equilibrium is "cost". Too much demand......raise the prices, too little demand lower the prices. But then folks complain incessantly about the price and the cost to hunt.

You see.......point creep isn't the problem, it's a symptom of the problem. But it's only a problem for those that are part of the demand side. It's a great problem to have if you're the states because that means the demand is high. So they can take advantage of that and raise prices, or add additional fees or tags onto it..........and get it........because of the demand. But the demand still exceeds the supply. So what if the states all started to charge $10k per tag? Would that decrease the demand? I would imagine........but how much? The key is finding that equilibrium point, and it will change as soon as either supply or demand changes.

If you go all the back to my first post in this thread I stated what I see as the problem.

I understand the economics side of it and I know what causes creep. At least with a true lottery system it’s equal. Everyone has an equal shot every year. Does it mean that everyone is going to draw? No. Does it mean that one day I am guaranteed draw it? No. Is it going to make everyone happy? Nope.

Raising the prices would help decrease demand but a government isn’t supposed to run like a business. The United States was built on the premise that everyone had an equal opportunity regardless of age,gender,income,etc. So for the government to raise prices to the point of equilibrium would kind of defeat that purpose. Along with that equilibrium would also be changing. I have an economics degree, doesn’t make me an expert, but it does mean that I know it works great on paper. Once you through humans in the mix it doesn’t work as smooth.

No where has anyone said that you get rid of point systems and everything is going to be magically fixed. There will still be problems, people will still be unhappy. At least without a point system my kids will have a shot at hunting elk more than once in their lifetime. You are fortunate to live in a state that still has great OTC opportunities, I am jealous. But, to sit back and say can’t change it might as well just enjoy it and not try? That’s just ignorant and selfish.




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[CorbLand]

Don't points reset to zero after used? So the 30 year hunter and the new hunter are equal, why would it be a barrier for one and not the other? The only thing preventing a new hunter from becoming just that is their own choice.

Works that way if it’s a bonus point system but not preference points.

So for example, Utah has a 50/50 split bonus/preference on tag allocation. The unit I am applying for has 4 elk tags. 2 are random draw and 2 go to the highest point holders that apply. When I started to apply 5 years ago the max point holders where getting this tag at 4 points. Now to be guaranteed the tag it’s 10 points. I still have a shot at one of the random 2 tags but my odds would increase if I had a shot at all 4.


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[PassCreek]

Don't points reset to zero after used? So the 30 year hunter and the new hunter are equal, why would it be a barrier for one and not the other? The only thing preventing a new hunter from becoming just that is their own choice.

Yes, your points go to zero if you draw your first choice, in Colorado, but generally you won't be able to accrue enough points to catch the people that already have points and have been applying. For Unit 201 Elk for example, they give out 28 tags for Rifle, only 19 went to residents last year. The people that drew non-Hybrid draw, used 24 preference points. If you started applying now, it would be a lot of years before you draw (1,100 applied for that unit as a first choice). Only 4 people drew on the Hybrid Draw.

I know when I start applying for my son, I won't be planning on having him hunt a unit like 201. I'll look at something in the 6 to 7 range. I plan on applying for him at age 12 so hopefully when he's 18, he can hunt somewhere cool. He'll be hunting units that take 0 points or OTC until then.