Do States care about point creep?

[5MilesBack]

I have an economics degree, doesn’t make me an expert, but it does mean that I know it works great on paper. Once you through humans in the mix it doesn’t always work.

It works great on paper and in practice.........IF those humans allow it to. That's the problem.....humans are emotional and try to reason it all while bringing emotions into the equation. And that's where it fails. A perfect free market system doesn't work on emotions or guarantee an equal opportunity for all to every single thing. They have an equal opportunity to chase or pursue those things, but that doesn't mean they are entitled to them somehow without meeting the requirements that the market sets.

And just because a government agency is the one managing this commodity, doesn't mean that this commodity suddenly fails to qualify as a commodity, and doesn't follow the same economic criteria.

Just look at the stock market........everyone has the same equal opportunity to invest in the stock market. But that doesn't mean that everyone has an equal amount of resources to invest. Everyone has an equal opportunity to "apply" for these tags, but not everyone has an equal amount of resources (i.e. points) to get anything they want. Not everything or everybody has to be equal........that's leftist propaganda.

 

[5MilesBack]

If you go all the back to my first post in this thread I stated what I see as the problem.

I went back and read your first post. I don't see anywhere where you stated what the problem is. You mention some of the symptoms of the problem, but you can't fix the problem by only addressing the symptoms.

And a lottery system has the same issues that a point system does when the demand far exceeds the supply. The top units in NM are still near 1% draw odds now for NR's........add even more applicants and those odds decrease every year. Will someone draw those tags.......sure, just like they will with the Powerball lottery. But most people will never draw so they start applying for the "lesser" units. Well, what happens to those lesser units then? Point creeps moves in.........in a sense. The odds just got much lower of drawing those as well because of the demand. See how that works. The lottery isn't the problem, and points aren't the problem........demand is the problem.

 

[Quin]

Don't points reset to zero after used? So the 30 year hunter and the new hunter are equal, why would it be a barrier for one and not the other? The only thing preventing a new hunter from becoming just that is their own choice.

The difference I see is that the 30 year hunter is already a hunter - they know they like it. The new hunter is not a hunter yet so how do you convince them to try something if they won't be able to participate for several years and have to pay a whole bunch of money in the meantime? Especially if there are other things they can do right now.

Would anyone that wasn't already a golfer pick up golf if you had to buy equipment and then pay $100 or so each year so you can actually go play your first round in 4 or 5 years? And then wait several more years to go play your second round?

Maybe hunter recruitment will become low enough and enough hunters will drop out that points begin to stabilize... But frankly I don't see lower hunter numbers ending well for hunters.

 

[CorbLand]

It works great on paper and in practice.........IF those humans allow it to. That's the problem.....humans are emotional and try to reason it all while bringing emotions into the equation. And that's where it fails. A perfect free market system doesn't work on emotions or guarantee an equal opportunity for all to every single thing. They have an equal opportunity to chase or pursue those things, but that doesn't mean they are entitled to them somehow without meeting the requirements that the market sets.

And just because a government agency is the one managing this commodity, doesn't mean that this commodity suddenly fails to qualify as a commodity, and doesn't follow the same economic criteria.

Just look at the stock market........everyone has the same equal opportunity to invest in the stock market. But that doesn't mean that everyone has an equal amount of resources to invest. Everyone has an equal opportunity to "apply" for these tags, but not everyone has an equal amount of resources (i.e. points) to get anything they want. Not everything or everybody has to be equal........that's leftist propaganda.

Your asking people to lose the one thing that makes us human...emotion. Emotion is what makes us different but ok.

I guess I don’t see it as leftist propaganda when it is literally written “for the people” and “held in trust for the people”. I have never seen those words written for the stock market. Apples and oranges man.


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[CorbLand]

I went back and read your first post. I don't see anywhere where you stated what the problem is. You mention some of the symptoms of the problem, but you can't fix the problem by only addressing the symptoms.

And a lottery system has the same issues that a point system does when the demand far exceeds the supply. The top units in NM are still near 1% draw odds now for NR's........add even more applicants and those odds decrease every year. Will someone draw those tags.......sure, just like they will with the Powerball lottery. But most people will never draw so they start applying for the "lesser" units. Well, what happens to those lesser units then? Point creeps moves in.........in a sense. The odds just got much lower of drawing those as well because of the demand. See how that works. The lottery isn't the problem, and points aren't the problem........demand is the problem.

I stated that a lottery system wouldn’t solve the problem but you can keep cherry picking. You’re really good at it.

It’s like getting cancer. Chemo makes you sick as hell and doesn’t eliminate the cancer but it sure beats the **** out of dying.



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[jmez]

I guess I don't understand the argument. I've hunted elk as a non resident for the last 13 years, every year, in 3 different states. I've used points one time in the last 13 years. There are plenty of opportunities to simply hunt elk every year. What there are not an abundance of are opportunities to hunt big bulls in trophy units.

So lets call a spade a spade here. If you simply want to hunt elk, you can do so rather easily every year. If you want to hunt premium units and chase huge bulls every year continue to complain about the points system.

 

[realunlucky]

I guess I don't understand the argument. I've hunted elk as a non resident for the last 13 years, every year, in 3 different states. I've used points one time in the last 13 years. There are plenty of opportunities to simply hunt elk every year. What there are not an abundance of are opportunities to hunt big bulls in trophy units.

So lets call a spade a spade here. If you simply want to hunt elk, you can do so rather easily every year. If you want to hunt premium units and chase huge bulls every year continue to complain about the points system.

The opportunities are decreasing though no matter how you look at it so the next 13 years are not going to be compatible to the your last 13.

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[5MilesBack]

I stated that a lottery system wouldn’t solve the problem but you can keep cherry picking. You’re really good at it.

Of course it's not going to solve the problem. There's nothing to cherry pick.........demand is the problem.....period. And the only thing that's going to lower that demand is higher pricing. But they aren't anywhere near equilibrium yet apparently, because even with higher prices across the board in every western state........demand just keeps going up. We could hit a major recession and those haven't even shown to reduce the demand. Everyone is crying for more and more hunter recruitment, but the demand is already way out of balance. More hunters isn't going to make that better either.

I really struggle to see things emotionally. That's just not how my mind operates.

 

[jmez]

The opportunities are decreasing though no matter how you look at it so the next 13 years are not going to be compatible to the your last 13.

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Time will tell. As it stands, new guys can still hunt elk every single year. New hunter recruitment is not a valid argument when there is still opportunity to go every year.

 

[elkstabber]

I view point creep the same as I view the line at the grocery store.

Why would the grocery store care if their lines are long? They don't.

They might care if they saw customers walk in, see the long lines, and then turn around and leave. If customers were going to another grocery store with shorter lines instead then maybe they'd try to fix their long lines.

HINT: the grocery store with the shorter lines probably either has a lousy selection or their prices are too high.

 

[MallardSX2]

IMO

People need to loose their points when they draw any tag be it OTC,cow/calf/, 1st,2nd , 3rd, and 4th choices in every state for every species. Make people use their points if they intend to hunt.

Oh, I cant hunt Colorado every year? No problem, I will hunt there every three years...its not that big of a deal.

 

[3forks]

Wherever anyone stands on this issue, look at the image of a lift line at Vail and the video posted to put some perspective on this discussion.

Recreation in general is being affected by the sheer number of people trying to participate in whatever pastime they are interested in.

 

[fatlander]

Wherever anyone stands on this issue, look at the image of a lift line at Vail and the video posted to put some perspective on this discussion.

Recreation in general is being affected by the sheer number of people trying to participate in whatever pastime they are interested in.

We’re scratching the surface on a problem that cannot morally be addressed. Point creep won’t matter when Mother Nature eventually works it out.


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[Sled]

I'm aware of that. Id like to know if any meaningful conversation is being had.

yes,

now there are 3 things in life that are guaranteed and the states count on them....

Death, Taxes and Points Creep. the last one is heavily controlled by the first.

 

[MallardSX2]

Oh yes, the ski lift line. I am glad I sold my skis a few year back.

You can always tell when the economy is doing good. People are our pissing their money away left and right. lol

The same people pissing their money away now will be the same ones complaining about being broke in a few years.

 

[sndmn11]

Would anyone that wasn't already a golfer pick up golf if you had to buy equipment and then pay $100 or so each year so you can actually go play your first round in 4 or 5 years? And then wait several more years to go play your second round?

Ahhhh nobody has to wait years to hunt.

 

[5MilesBack]

Wherever anyone stands on this issue, look at the image of a lift line at Vail and the video posted to put some perspective on this discussion.

That's not a lift line.......that's insanity. I don't do lines or crowds.......which is why I refuse to try to collect a bunch of points.

 

[Netherman]

To answer the initial question, Yes. All states care about funding and points are a major source of free income (don't deplete the resource). The more points you buy without using them the more "free" money the state resource commission can gain.

Personally I like the current mix of point and lottery systems in the west. The point states allow me to plan and the lottery states allow me opportunity at high end hunts that I'll likely never build high enough to draw in the point states. I try and go on two western hunts a year and am building 8 species/states worth of points. With this system I'll have around 4 points each year to work with. By mixing in some OTC and hopefully drawing a few lottery tags that number might get into the 5/6 range.

I wouldn't mind the states doing some restructuring of the draw deadline and result dates (lottery states first and point states second) or removing of the guide requirements for species or access (AK and WY). But, in general I still think there are plenty of quality opportunities to be had.

 

[Sled]

To answer the initial question, Yes. All states care about funding and points are a major source of free income (don't deplete the resource). The more points you buy without using them the more "free" money the state resource commission can gain.

that is accurate for the states the require a license be valid at the time of purchase. in most states the point/application fee is mostly eaten up by the private company conducting the draw. the state gets the license fee.