Do States care about point creep?

[Bobbyboe]

Figured, but thought it would be an interesting question. In my opinion something will need to be done in the next 10-20 years though.

No

.

 

[Jethro]

States care about setting tag quotas that will allow for the management of wildlife populations and then selling those tags to to generate revenue. That is exactly what they do and they have people lined up around the block waiting to buy. Unfortunately with any limited product, some are left out.

 

[Droppndrakes]

They could start auctioning off the non-res tags every year on an “eBay for tags” platform. Points equate to a dollar amount until they are all spent, and then it’s all cash money. Minimum sale prices could keep the money flowing.

 

[realunlucky]

They could start auctioning off the non-res tags every year on an “eBay for tags” platform. Points equate to a dollar amount until they are all spent, and then it’s all cash money. Minimum sale prices could keep the money flowing.

How would that change anything? Best units are requiring the most points. Oh you want to use cash money to "EVEN" up with everyone that's be waiting in line. Look at Utah and the money they generate selling what were once non-resident tags to the highest bidder. Bring your check book and buy some of the best hunting in the West

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[Trial153]

I like the make the world Utah policy..... all auctions all the time, let the free market decide.
Only a commie can be against that.

 

[realunlucky]

I like the make the world Utah policy..... all auctions all the time, let the free market decide.
Only a commie can be against that.

Only top dog commies have enough money to play that game

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[Rich M]

I don't think the point system is or will be a hindrance to hunter recruitment - most guys seem to just want to hunt and will go as able as opposed to feeling that the very top tiered places should be available to everyone. We have tons of guys saying that they want to get in line and have a "better" hunt than OTC or for whatever is in their back yard.

The topic of money always comes up and what will address all of that is something like CO did - make folks buy a hunting license just to apply. Same as paying for a point. Diff spin.

There is another thing most folks don't consider and that is the actually limited pool of folks who are applying for this stuff. If we have 15 million hunters, I guess there are less than 2.5 million playing the points game out west, of those some are gaming multiple states and dreaming of experiencing whatever they dream to experience.

You-all might be able to affect some kind of change, but do it in 10 years when I'm done using the system that they have in place. I will voice against it every chance - you may be younger but I've only got one or two hunts left and want them to count.

 

[5MilesBack]

One of the issues with point systems is that some people weren't around to get in line 10 or 20 years ago. I don't mean didn't have the foresight to get in, I mean weren't alive. For example a 1 year old kid. That 10 point tag you mention may be 15 points before that kid can even start applying for points. Extrapolate that out and he'll draw that tag at 30 points in 2060 or so when he's in his 40s... and thats with only a half point a year creep.

I think point systems have the potential to become a real hindrance to new hunter recruitment/retainment at some point in the future (if they don't implode first...)

IF that 1 year old ONLY wants to hunt that 30 point unit, then yes........he's going to have to wait in THAT particular line. So WHY would anyone put themselves through that? Choose a different unit and go hunt. But ultimately it is THEIR choice to do that. So why would they complain about "choosing" that option? That's like saying "I'm never going to golf again until Augusta Golf Club makes me a member, and I'm going to complain about it until then as well......everyone should be entitled to play Augusta."

 

[87TT]

Just buy Lotto tickets.

 

[fatlander]

IF that 1 year old ONLY wants to hunt that 30 point unit, then yes........he's going to have to wait in THAT particular line. So WHY would anyone put themselves through that? Choose a different unit and go hunt. But ultimately it is THEIR choice to do that. So why would they complain about "choosing" that option? That's like saying "I'm never going to golf again until Augusta Golf Club makes me a member, and I'm going to complain about it until then as well".

That’s really easy for old heads to say that reaped the first round or two of rewards of various preference point systems that were created before many of the younger folks that hunt were even born.

Over time, everyone, including the guys that got in on the ground floor, would have a better a chance at better tags (or even tags in general) if it were truly random.

Point systems only still exist because they’re cash cows for the states that have them. I have a chance to become a member at Augusta if I work hard and make the money and connections I need to get in. I’ll never catch the premiere units in some states. It’s not possible.


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[5MilesBack]

That’s really easy for old heads to say that reaped the first round or two of rewards of various preference point systems that were created before many of the younger folks that hunt were even born.

Like I said earlier, I started in 1980 and have never hunted a unit that takes more than 5 points.

Over time, everyone, including the guys that got in on the ground floor, would have a better a chance at better tags (or even tags in general) if it were truly random.

If it was random, you can literally go years without drawing a tag at all. Just look at our sheep, moose, and goat. The funny thing is.......even with my 15 total points for sheep and moose, someone draws that tag every year with under 6 total points. Is that really a better option than straight points? Well of course it is for those with only 6 points, but that's like stores grabbing people from the back of the line to get in first on Black Friday. If you've camped out for a week to be first in line are you OK with that?

I have a chance to become a member at Augusta if I work hard and make the money and connections I need to get in. I’ll never catch the premiere units in some states. It’s not possible.

Well, if you work hard and make money, you can hunt the top unit in CO this year by buying a landowner voucher. YOU'RE IN!!

 

[Ndbowhunter]

havent seen any goat landowner voucher

ya got one?

 

[Quin]

IF that 1 year old ONLY wants to hunt that 30 point unit, then yes........he's going to have to wait in THAT particular line. So WHY would anyone put themselves through that? Choose a different unit and go hunt. But ultimately it is THEIR choice to do that. So why would they complain about "choosing" that option? That's like saying "I'm never going to golf again until Augusta Golf Club makes me a member, and I'm going to complain about it until then as well......everyone should be entitled to play Augusta."

Point creep means that eventually there will be zero zero point units so, no, you won't be able to just "choose a different unit and go hunt". As some units get to ridiculous point levels, people will get sick of waiting and spend their points to go hunt but that will further speed up the increase in points for lower point units. Creep in the lower units is happening already -- I see threads about "should I spend X points on unit Y" and someone chimes in with a "oh I used to hunt that as a 2nd choice 10 years ago".

 

[WCB]

Right now I'm playing a couple points games on units that aren't trophy units, but fun units with good mature deer. Someone commented on the point system no effecting recruitment and retention I call BS. I personally know guys that have almost dropped almost completely out of out west hunting because of draws. Whether they are justified or not doesn't matter it is a perception.

I am probably shooting myself in the foot but I am way behind the 8 ball in draws because I like to plan my falls out and hunt those easier tags and get multiple hunts in. I laugh at guys that complain about draws and point creep but that is the basket they chose to put their eggs in and if they don't draw they don't hunt.

to answer you question...NO, NO they do not care because $

 

[204guy]

Change the question to what it really is, "Do the majority of bureaucrats and politicians care about point systems?" Then factor in the $ made and the answer should be pretty clear.

Kinda sad the small view of some guys though. It isnt about hunting the top tier units anymore, its very obvious those aren't attainable for anyone who got in the game in the last decade or 2. Point creep is now rampant through "mid" tier units. And now gen tags in MT and WY are becoming multi year plan tags. I dont see CO OTC lasting all that much longer. Points are artificially forcing the age class of hunters to be older, and it's going to keep increasing.

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[CorbLand]

Three things that I think people miss when they are talking point systems.

1. There is this illusion that the only units that have creep or take a shit load of points are the top tier units. Not true. I have middle of the road single digit points and have been applying for one of, if not the worst elk unit in Utah. I still only have a 20% chance of drawing. It takes roughly 10 points as a resident to draw this unit and that is not for a rifle tag.

2. Everyone thinks that if you dont want to play the point game just go hunt OTC. Not every state has great OTC opportunities. When I say not great, I am not talking quality or quantities of elk. I am saying that its not very easily obtainable. Utah OTC is a shit show and there arent very many tags and lots of people trying to buy them. There are roughly 200,000 hunters in Utah and only 30,000 OTC tags. Half of those are for bulls and the other half for spikes.

3. As units require more and more points, people start to expect more and more. The unit across the road from the one I have been applying for takes roughly 15 points to draw. As it became more and more points people wanted to see better quality of elk. This year after hearing it for years they cut tags to increase the age class. All it does is add to creep and push people into other units, which jumps that creep up as well.

 

[fatlander]

Well, if you work hard and make money, you can hunt the top unit in CO this year by buying a landowner voucher. YOU'RE IN!!

The price of that tag is in the realm of the upfront fee for Augusta. Then the yearly membership is cheaper than middle tier landowner tags. One would be better off trading weekends at Augusta for multiple land owner tags every year.

The whole problem with creep is that one day you won’t have any units to hunt OTC.


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[Rich M]

Someone commented on the point system no effecting recruitment and retention I call BS. I personally know guys that have almost dropped almost completely out of out west hunting because of draws. Whether they are justified or not doesn't matter it is a perception.

I am probably shooting myself in the foot but I am way behind the 8 ball in draws because I like to plan my falls out and hunt those easier tags and get multiple hunts in. I laugh at guys that complain about draws and point creep but that is the basket they chose to put their eggs in and if they don't draw they don't hunt.

to answer you question...NO, NO they do not care because $

The guys who quit the point system are quickly replaced by new guys wanting to go. And in the end there are more new guys than the old ones who dropped out. I am collecting for 1, maybe 2 future hunts and then will not be playing the game after that. My dropping out will have 0 affect on the system.

In the 1 or 2 hunts I'm hoping for, they require 4-6 points right now and that's the going "price" for playing in an area with more then XX% of the public land being accessible. I've done the low access hunts before and was successful, could have filled multiple tags if I had em. BUT didn't like being hemmed-in by other hunters, having guys go running to get in front & competing for a stalk, etc. IMO it isn't about the kill but the experience in getting the kill. Willing to wait to get the better experience.

Have no complaints about the point system - it makes things clearer, I can plan that in 2025 me and so & so are going to XX to hunt and have a great time. So & so will each get their first and maybe we'll shoot something else or do some trout fishing. In the meantime we'll hunt local in our own states and have fun while waiting for the out of state adventure(s). Waiting sucks but it allows planning and some level of certainty.

Some folks make it seem like they have no other alternatives and just have the top tiered hunts that are like 20 points. There are plenty of great alternatives for less than 20 points. Folks can be stubborn and think that it has to be X or nothing. Gotta wonder if those videos are really shot in Unit XYZ or if they are taken on some private ranch and passed as public DIY to sell videos and such.

This is not to disregard the beauty of some places and that we all come at this stuff differently with diff goals and expectations. Our mileage will vary.

Fatlander hit it - One day there won't be any OTC opportunities - everything will be draw of some sort.

 

[5MilesBack]

havent seen any goat landowner voucher

ya got one?

Those are lottery tags, just like he was suggesting to go to.

 

[5MilesBack]

Point creep means that eventually there will be zero zero point units so, no, you won't be able to just "choose a different unit and go hunt".

We're not talking about eventually, we're talking about right now. Hunt OTC while you still can. Go hunt ID OTC while you still can. Put in for WY, AZ, and NM while you're at it. Expand your horizons. If PP's get you down, then only apply for NM.......it's a totally random draw like many are proposing all states should have........a regular utopian draw process.