Disgusting!!!!!

[Lukem]

Truly disgusting in the OP.

As for the rest, all I'll say is that somebody needs to start "Thinking like a mountain." Good read.

 

[tipsntails7]

You do understand that to large of herds can create famine in certain areas, and a massive increase in possible diseases, not sure if you've ever been to Texas but guess what... The hog problem is out of control and there is zero sign of it stopping, and in california it is not to far from happening. Snow geese is another example of humans futile attempts at controlling a population, people kill hundreds upon hundreds of geese a day and honestly it doesn't make a dent. This happened because we made the prarie pothole region to perfect, we were greedy and now the population is out of control. Can deer get like this? Probably, what if car accidents involving deer went up 70 percent in the country. Removing all predators and thinking that humans could take the place of what Mother Nature has built over time is one of the biggest thoughts of hubris I have ever heard. Nature needs balance.

 

[cuerro viejo]

Aww Shrek....... I really wanted to help you out here but Im definitely not an expert on the subject but Ive watched enough studies and Animal planet enough to know that without the Bears, lions, wolves there is no way humans could keep up with the populations of prey out there in the world. I challenge you to go read up about the populations of wild pigs who are overrunning the south right now. This really would be as close as youll find to a scenario of you humans trying to manage a out of control population of prey and look how miserably we are failing at it. Many States including your own if Im not mistaken have a year round open season on them and in many state you can kill as many as you can take out. This still hasnt stopped the Pigs from breeding out of control. Heck even the elk populations where getting out of control before they introduced the Wolves back into the Lower 48s now the Wolves are keeping those populations in check or sometimes killing to many of the elk as they will take out the baby elk before going for the grown adults.
I wish I could agree with you on your theory of game management but unfortunately it wouldnt work. Much respect though man. Keep on keeping on =-)

Been an interesting thread, the fate of the people involved in the OP link should be swift and harsh.

With that said you can really tell the difference in the people that live where they goberment regulates their wild life and where the people regulate and manage theirs. Interesting

You simplely have zero understanding of what you speak of. The pig problem is a product of human breeding and animal with attributes that allow it to reproduce quicker then species could of ever evolved to with our selective help. The pig is an invasive exotic species, pure and simple. Was never ment to be on our Eco system. Now you have us trying to control an animal that breeds every three months, can have litters up to 13 piglets that are breeding age as of three months. Do the math.

There is a big difference between an animal that may produce twins every year and a pig that can produce up to 4 times a year with 52 offspring. Which half could breed back in the same year.

Fact is you can not eliminate all predators, you may eliminate some of the top apex, but not all. If that was the case there would be zero lions, bobcats and yokes in Texas, and that's not the case in state where there is no season or limits where lions and yokes are not taken as such a thing of beauty.

As far as your wolf case enjoy your "Canadian" wolves in CO, when the population become highly noticeable report back to us. Although I find it interesting you worry so much about the over population of the elk, with out wolves.... yet how many of your units are draw tags? Why can't you trade in un-used OTC archery tags for an OTC rifle tag... Elk or deer Populations with or with out wolves have be manager by humans since we evolved to a species. The difference now is the effectiveness of the human is much higher.

In the mean time that's one thing I will never have to worry about down here is wolves so good luck with the Introduction of our northern allies wolf species, Now the pig epidemic that's another story. What I have learned is they are actually truly the new Apex predator. With that being said we many never eliminate them but are learning how to lesson and keep them to a level thats less harsh to on our Eco system. Interesting that we can a mange them, yet cant manage an animal like an elk that reproduces 1/52 to 1/26 as much

 

[Backpack Hunter]

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with any of you guys here, but those who are bringing up the "hog problem" or snow geese over population do you seriously not think that we as humans have the capability to not only control but wipe out these species if we so chose?

 

[tipsntails7]

Sam , I'm all for opening up the logging again in the NW. I think you are right that the quiltwork of different forest maturity is a boon to the game. Without logging then the whole NW needs to burn on a regular basis. I personally would rather see it logged than burn.

I personally would rather see neither, if you've never hunted in the costal rainforest you don't understand it, it's a place where green grows everywhere, where the canopy blocks out the sun, fog lingers as thick as whip cream, and Roosevelt's glide through the underbrush like ghosts, it's a place where 20 yard shots are "long ones", jittery black tails dart through thickets and black bear meander looking for the next berry patch. You want to kill, you have no desire to enjoy the pursuit of game, your worried about optimizing harvest and you should enjoy what nature has to offer. Did you ever think the lions put your deer population back to natural levels?

If hunting was outlawed would you still chase game? Would you do what you do for photos alone? I can honestly say if hunting was outlawed tomorrow next September I would trade my bow for a Camera and head out just like I do every year, I can say this because I have done this. To me it's not the harvest. It's everything that comes before the harvest. Game meat is delicious and a bonus, but I'm never disappointed with tag soup.

 

[cuerro viejo]

You do understand that to large of herds can create famine in certain areas, and a massive increase in possible diseases, not sure if you've ever been to Texas but guess what... The hog problem is out of control and there is zero sign of it stopping, and in california it is not to far from happening. Snow geese is another example of humans futile attempts at controlling a population, people kill hundreds upon hundreds of geese a day and honestly it doesn't make a dent. This happened because we made the prarie pothole region to perfect, we were greedy and now the population is out of control. Can deer get like this? Probably, what if car accidents involving deer went up 70 percent in the country. Removing all predators and thinking that humans could take the place of what Mother Nature has built over time is one of the biggest thoughts of hubris I have ever heard. Nature needs balance.

Pig problem in Texas is managed. Those that do it well have very few to no problems. Those that dont manage and don't act on it have issues.

Elk and deer can be managed by tag numbers, it's pure and simple and it works. Texas is home to many aminal both native and not native. Heck in some case there are more of the non native species in Texas then there native lands. Management is simple if you do not have the carrying capacity then you must eliminate mouths. Longer seasons more tags.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with any of you guys here, but those who are bringing up the "hog problem" or snow geese over population do you seriously not think that we as humans have the capability to not only control but wipe out these species if we so chose?

Control yes, wipe out yes but not with out serious effects to no target species also.

 

[tipsntails7]

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with any of you guys here, but those who are bringing up the "hog problem" or snow geese over population do you seriously not think that we as humans have the capability to not only control but wipe out these species if we so chose?

We have actively chosen to try, we have failed, and we have failed to an extreme with snow geese. There is no limits. There is multiple seasons, I alone have killed over 500 snows each of the last 4 years. That's just me, not my buddies I take not the thousands of other hunters that do this as well.

 

[cuerro viejo]

Snow geese issue can be fix simply by allowing access to breeding grounds. Not saying that's a good thing because non-target species my also pay the price

 

[tipsntails7]

Every breeding ground everywhere? Are you just going to walk around with a gun and a wheelbarrow full of shells? Or a flamethrower, how about we just send bombers. Is it possible, obviously, especially since they breed in certain areas and lose the ability to fly. But short of a snow goose genocide I think it's highly unluckily. Axis deer on Hawaii are another example what could happen when something has zero predators.

 

[Backpack Hunter]

We have actively chosen to try, we have failed, and we have failed to an extreme with snow geese. There is no limits. There is multiple seasons, I alone have killed over 500 snows each of the last 4 years. That's just me, not my buddies I take not the thousands of other hunters that do this as well.

Again, not saying that we should but to say that we have chosen to and failed is incorrect. We have merely opened a season on them. If we as humans simply wanted to get rid of them there would be no limits. Heck we could drop bombs on them, poison them, burn their breeding grounds, etc, etc.
Again, I'm not saying we should. Merely pointing out that saying we can't, because we haven't with the limits we have placed on ourselves, is short sighted at best.

 

[tipsntails7]

Pig problem in Texas is managed. Those that do it well have very few to no problems. Those that dont manage and don't act on it have issues.

Elk and deer can be managed by tag numbers, it's pure and simple and it works. Texas is home to many aminal both native and not native. Heck in some case there are more of the non native species in Texas then there native lands. Management is simple if you do not have the carrying capacity then you must eliminate mouths. Longer seasons more tags.

I'm sorry I don't believe hogs are not a problem because they are every place I've been they cause damage, Oregon, california, Texas and Hawaii. Texas is also comprised of game preserves if I am not mistaken, especially exotics. It's a lot easier to manage game when you can drive to a blind, sit at a watering hole or feeder, shoot an animal and drive a qad to pick it up.

Hike 5-10 miles into the backcountry, spend 3-7 days hunting, kill a bull and now carry 400+ Pounds of meat back out. It's a lot different, more tags is not the awnser, it will just amount to more tags unpunched, now you get 5 tags a year, I don't have 5 weeks vacation to hunt 5 elk with. And not a lot of people have the resolve that it would take to Harvest 5 elk per year.

 

[tipsntails7]

Again, not saying that we should but to say that we have chosen to and failed is incorrect. We have merely opened a season on them. If we as humans simply wanted to get rid of them there would be no limits. Heck we could drop bombs on them, poison them, burn their breeding grounds, etc, etc.
Again, I'm not saying we should. Merely pointing out that saying we can't, because we haven't with the limits we have placed on ourselves, is short sighted at best.

You realize they are not the only migratory gamebird that inhabit the breeding grounds? We could not exterminate then without harming other species. Which inturn defeats the entire purpose does it not?

 

[SHTF]

I'm sorry I don't believe hogs are not a problem because they are every place I've been they cause damage, Oregon, california, Texas and Hawaii. Texas is also comprised of game preserves if I am not mistaken, especially exotics. It's a lot easier to manage game when you can drive to a blind, sit at a watering hole or feeder, shoot an animal and drive a qad to pick it up.

Hike 5-10 miles into the backcountry, spend 3-7 days hunting, kill a bull and now carry 400+ Pounds of meat back out. It's a lot different, more tags is not the awnser, it will just amount to more tags unpunched, now you get 5 tags a year, I don't have 5 weeks vacation to hunt 5 elk with. And not a lot of people have the resolve that it would take to Harvest 5 elk per year.

Was going to just walk away from Texan here as I wasnt to keen on his approach with his post above but Tips you nailed it. Tex You may have yourself a nice little plot of texas heaven there where you got things setup and managed well but that doesnt mean the rest of the country shares your same zealousness of having the breed under control. The point I made above to Shrek was examples of how things have gotten out of control. Weather they are exotics or not makes not a hell of beans. Point is The south is one area where there arnt a lot of predators and with the explosion of the feral Hog problem across the country down south and in Hawaii its become a very expensive problem. I will save you all the internet news links out there where Millions in agricultural damage has been done by them and how Wildlife managers across the country are trying get the problem under control because of the havoc they are causing.

Shrek wants to be the top predator thats his belief and how he feels about that and I respect that at the same time I think their are other folks out there that have a completely different approach and feeling about going out into the backwoods and being around the Bears, Wolves(Ohh wait you dont like them do you) or the mountain lions.

Nature is a circle of life each creature has its place including the wolves. I bet if we introduced Lions and tigers into the south the Hog problem would probably be much more manageable. These pigs have the litters they have because they are not pressured. Overtime if you put immense amounts of pressure to keep the population under control then youd see much less pig happiness in the areas over run by them.

by no means as I said earlier do I claim to be any sort of an expert on the subject but I think we all have a innate instinct about how the circle of life works. Some just have different views on how to handle it. =-)

Back to the topic of these douchbags I will be watching this one to see what if anything happens to them. You may get over on mother nature but eventually she will have her revenge.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I'm sorry I don't believe hogs are not a problem because they are every place I've been they cause damage, Oregon, california, Texas and Hawaii. Texas is also comprised of game preserves if I am not mistaken, especially exotics. It's a lot easier to manage game when you can drive to a blind, sit at a watering hole or feeder, shoot an animal and drive a qad to pick it up.

Hike 5-10 miles into the backcountry, spend 3-7 days hunting, kill a bull and now carry 400+ Pounds of meat back out. It's a lot different, more tags is not the awnser, it will just amount to more tags unpunched, now you get 5 tags a year, I don't have 5 weeks vacation to hunt 5 elk with. And not a lot of people have the resolve that it would take to Harvest 5 elk per year.

Lol, ya I would be on rokslide if I wasn't familiar or didnt hunt western states, like CO. I guess I have no idea about packing elk or mulies out because I'm from TX. I actually pass on several young bulls this year in CO, but did manage to take a decent mulie with my bow. Been hunting CO for over 20years, use to own a place south of Pagosa Springs.

I guess the second largest state in the nations is all high fenced mini ranches..lol.... Again you control population via tag numbers. That's why you have draws and not every season is OTC. Also why you cant trade in Unfilled archery tags for rifle tags. Apparently you aren't over populated. I just hope you sirus moose population doesn't go back to unhuntable numbers, here shortly

I know it's hard for you to understand herd management relative to carrying capacity, I get it, it's a new concept. You don't want to think about it, you just want to hunt and agrue all the great about bring in a none native predator. It's an ideology that soon or later you will learn.

 

[Jason Snyder]

The funniest line on here was the statement that burgeoning populations of game would lead to more access. I lived in Montana for 11 years. I saw elk numbers drastically climb in those years, and I can assure you that access did not increase. It did the exact opposite.

A key thing to remember is that the wildlife belongs to every citizen of the state. It does not solely belong to the folks that hunt and/or fish. I can respect Shrek's viewpoint (although I strongly disagree with it), but it is not and never will be a reality. For every person like Shrek, there is someone that would want no hunting and/or fishing. Then, there are lots of folks in the middle that want balance. For one to ask for complete predator elimination is as selfish as someone asking to end all hunting.

 

[SHTF]

The funniest line on here was the statement that burgeoning populations of game would lead to more access. I lived in Montana for 11 years. I saw elk numbers drastically climb in those years, and I can assure you that access did not increase. It did the exact opposite.

A key thing to remember is that the wildlife belongs to every citizen of the state. It does not solely belong to the folks that hunt and/or fish. I can respect Shrek's viewpoint (although I strongly disagree with it), but it is not and never will be a reality. For every person like Shrek, there is someone that would want no hunting and/or fishing. Then, there are lots of folks in the middle that want balance. For one to ask for complete predator elimination is as selfish as someone asking to end all hunting.

Very well Said Jason and I couldnt agree more.

 

[cuerro viejo]

Was going to just walk away from Texan here as I wasnt to keen on his approach with his post above but Tips you nailed it. Tex You may have yourself a nice little plot of texas heaven there where you got things setup and managed well but that doesnt mean the rest of the country shares your same zealousness of having the breed under control. The point I made above to Shrek was examples of how things have gotten out of control. Weather they are exotics or not makes not a hell of beans. Point is The south is one area where there arnt a lot of predators and with the explosion of the feral Hog problem across the country down south and in Hawaii its become a very expensive problem. I will save you all the internet news links out there where Millions in agricultural damage has been done by them and how Wildlife managers across the country are trying get the problem under control because of the havoc they are causing.

Shrek wants to be the top predator thats his belief and how he feels about that and I respect that at the same time I think their are other folks out there that have a completely different approach and feeling about going out into the backwoods and being around the Bears, Wolves(Ohh wait you dont like them do you) or the mountain lions.

Nature is a circle of life each creature has its place including the wolves. I bet if we introduced Lions and tigers into the south the Hog problem would probably be much more manageable. These pigs have the litters they have because they are not pressured. Overtime if you put immense amounts of pressure to keep the population under control then youd see much less pig happiness in the areas over run by them.

by no means as I said earlier do I claim to be any sort of an expert on the subject but I think we all have a innate instinct about how the circle of life works. Some just have different views on how to handle it. =-)

Back to the topic of these douchbags I will be watching this one to see what if anything happens to them. You may get over on mother nature but eventually she will have her revenge.

Lions will not target pigs, that's like a lion targeting a wolf. You can kill a pig and unless you open it up buzzards or yotes wont touch it becuase the hides to thick ...Immense pressure like helo hunts? Trapping, night vision and thermal gear and year round harvest? Yes I do all the above. Including my neighbors. We now manage hogs like government trappers did the wolf. Difference being the offspring pool size. I actually have cats on my property probably a good six months out of the year. They come and go, but never the less they are around.

Managing my carrying capacity and deer will always be different then elk and mulies. White tails don't migrate, and have small home ranges.

All I'm saying is if there's an over population issue you simply manage with tag numbers, wether it being OTC tags, landowner tags, etc. Snows and hogs have a tremendous amount of off spring compared to deer and elk.

Snow issue has always been a delicate one, since their breeding grounds are co-inhabited by others species.

 

[SHTF]

It is just sick what some people will do for money. I hope these criminals get the punishment they deserve.

I am glad to see there are quite a few people on here that enjoy the wild and the predators that exist in wild places. If there were no predators in the wilderness it would take a huge part of the hunting experience away. I enjoy seeing bears and finding lion tracks over my own tracks from the night before. Shrek, you made me laugh with your 100% human centric comment and humans total control of their world. We humans are not as powerful as we think and mother nature reminds us of that frequently.

Here is a lion my brothers and I treed a few weeks ago. We let her go and last week I saw her tracks again. I could never imagine wanting to completely eliminate, or intentionally wound such an amazing creature.

That is truely amazing. Ive seen a few out here in Colorado usually running away or crossing a road but man some day Id love to be a long on a Mountain Lion chase. Not to kill them but just to be witness to them hanging out like this. haha that cat looks pissed. Nice one. You can take my man card now but Im a cat lover. Me personally I couldnt tree them and shoot them out of a tree. For me they are just to majestic.

 

[Sam Millard]

For every person like Shrek, there is someone that would want no hunting and/or fishing. Then, there are lots of folks in the middle that want balance. For one to ask for complete predator elimination is as selfish as someone asking to end all hunting.

Ironically, the misguided folks who would end all hunting use the same arguments against us as the hunters who want the predators gone use against them.

The way I see it, we humans aren't just visiting the ecosystem, we are woven into its very fabric and hopefully always will be. Ever try to explain why you hunt to someone who doesn't? Hell I can't...the better question would be why don't they hunt? Humans have been hunting for and hunting with wolves and cats for a long time, and hopefully will be for a lot longer.

For the record, I don't consider bears to be predators. Except for the rare adult male who has learned to hunt calves and fawns, they don't have much impact on ungulate numbers. There are a few exceptions around here, but they are in areas where there were naturally occurring dense bear populations and introduced elk herds. When we try to "thin them out", it's rarely those few adult males who get whacked